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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope this racist woman loses her job - thread 2

258 replies

zscaler · 27/05/2020 19:38

But Vlad says she doesn't want allies, so what's the point?

The point is, you do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because you might gain something (trust / respect / gratitude / praise) from it.

You do it because all white people have a moral responsibility to dismantle racism, and that shouldn’t be dependent on black people asking us to do it, or being polite, or being grateful for our allyship.

Because it’s the very bare minimum we could and should do.

OP posts:
maggiethecat · 28/05/2020 12:10

@Leflic
You somehow feel the need to defend this woman to the point of appearing ridiculous. You acknowledge that her actions could have had serious consequences (I presume you mean to him) and then call him a twat for filming her. Are you so oblivious to the circumstances in the US that force black people to film for their protection?
And then you invent the dog's age and go further to suggest that this is the only area of the park that this bouncy puppy can have a run around. It's clear that you are keen on giving this women the benefit of every doubt. Unfortunately, all too often black people do not get this privilege.

maggiethecat · 28/05/2020 12:14

woman

charlestonchaplin · 28/05/2020 12:16

Christian Cooper is nicer than me. I won’t be bothering with specific dog treats, my budget doesn’t stretch to that. Anything sufficiently cheap and portable will do, unless the dogs aren’t interested, in which case I’ll have a rethink.

Leflic · 28/05/2020 12:24

Mr Cooper wasn't using this tactic maliciously. He was simply trying to get a dog back on its lead.
Yeah but would you know that at the time?

Clearly she is in the wrong, Having a look at the Ramble on Google - 38 acres! - it’s well known that dogs need to be on a lead in all of it. I don’t know where the other area he suggested was but assumed dangerous meant in terms of access to traffic or bikes.
Genuine question. Who is charge of policing whether people are obeying the park rules? Is their a legitimate way to stop people? Do they have CCTV? I mean great Mr Cooper feels able to stop people but what if someone physically attacks him next time.
I think filming people on your own phone is pretty inflammatory.

zscaler · 28/05/2020 12:37

Yeah but would you know that at the time?

If she’s so anxious about what people she doesn’t know might do to her dog that she interprets someone giving it a treat as a threat to her life, do you really think it’s credible that she would have let the dog off the lead in the first place?

People who are fearful of what might happen to their dogs if they have encounters with other people don’t let them off the lead.

I think filming people on your own phone is pretty inflammatory.

And I think it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to do when someone is a) refusing to leash their dog in a protected wildlife area, and b) threatening you. And regardless of that, it’s not illegal, and it doesn’t justify calling the police and claiming that an African American man is threatening your life.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 28/05/2020 12:39

I think filming people on your own phone is pretty inflammatory.

I have filmed people with my own phone. It's not inflammatory, it's a protective record keeping measure. If they didn't want to be filmed, they should not have been breaking the law.

dreamingbohemian · 28/05/2020 12:40

I don't think there's further need to engage with the few but ridiculously vocal racists emerging on this thread.

I completely agree with UmmH. I was glad to see a second thread started but it's a shame to see it derailed by people making the same racist assumptions over and over.

Leflic · 28/05/2020 12:42

maggiethecat

To clarify I am not defending her comments about an Afro American threatening her life. That is the sort of lie that could have serious consequences, which is what I meant.
I‘m defending her right to be upset that a man started filming her without consent. She clearly told him to stop, he didn’t and then she said she would call the police.

He didn’t start filming her because she was phoning the police and he thought she’d make stuff up.

Yes she should have put the dog on the lead but being filmed “transgressing” can have much wider impacts than the actual severity of the rule break. Once it’s online and everyone chips in who knows what happens.That’s why I think it’s intimidating.

As for the “ puppy” I read she got it from a rescue centre it was young. Also that all the normal dog runs were shut. I’d assumed they are designated fenced areas and the bit Mr Cooper suggested wasn’t.Otherwise it would be shut too,

charlestonchaplin · 28/05/2020 12:46

Leflic I bet if you were a victim of crime and someone filmed the incident you’d be grateful. Dashcams to guard against ‘crash for cash’, filming neighbourhood antisocial behaviour for a police/council complaint. I bet there are many circumstances where you’d be okay with filming.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen. Think about why being filmed makes you uncomfortable. Maybe because it is exposing behaviour you’d rather people not see, or maybe you think it’s fine for others to be filmed, you know, those from the lower echelons of society, not ‘respectable’ people like you.

Mittens030869 · 28/05/2020 12:48

There are a few genuine racists on the thread, quite obviously. But there are also some women who will always insist on the default assumption that it must be the man who is in the wrong and the lone female must have felt threatened. That is patently not the case when the woman chases after him and also has a pet dog.

The camera was sadly necessary, and I would have thought the reasons would be obvious in a context where African American suspects have been killed by racist police officers.

BlooperReel · 28/05/2020 12:52

I am genuinely gobsmacked at the lengths some will go to to try and make Amy to be the victim here, or anything other than completely culpable in what is essentially an attempt at a racist attack on this man. Did we watch the same video? Mr Cooper was calm in his tone of voice, he asked her to move away from him when she aggressively stomped toward him. In which universe can anyone claim he was the aggressor?!

She on the other hand, completely over reacted to a reasonable request from him, she was aggressive in manner and tone, she unnecessarily escalated the situation, she lied to the police, and she weaponised his race. She knew damn well what she was doing by saying she would tll the police an african american man was threatening her life, that is an implicit threat in a country where black men are routinely killed by the police, very often for minor infractions or none at all.

I mentioned on thread 1 I dont agree with the 'karen' thing, but its by the by when it comes down to who was in the wrong in this scenario, that isnt something you can ostensibly argue about, seeing as its on film and plainly obvious.

NewYorkStateOfMind · 28/05/2020 13:06

So Maria MacLachlan was wrong to film/photograph Tara Wolf and therefore must take some responsibility for their response.

The woman who chucked the cat in the bin a few years ago. Captured by a private residence's CCTV. Never should have been filmed or are homeowners filming passers by ok? Why aren't they creepy?

If a man on a building site starts shouting sexist slurs at me - I should not film him and his company name to inform his employer how he is conducting himself whilst in his job. I should do what instead as proof?

The people chanting "Jews shall not replace us" and the man who ploughed his car into Heather Heyer were captured by a man on his mobile phone. Should he not have been filming?

NotACleverName · 28/05/2020 13:06

In his place, I wouldn't be going around ordering people about like a self-appointed lawman, but if I did I'd certainly back off if someone was obviously upset.

What part of the dog should've been leashed is difficult for you to understand, @NotTerfNorCis? It's quite astounding the way you are still tying yourself in knots trying to make Amy Cooper into the victim and justifying her actions. It's also fucking revolting.

It's clear as fucking day, once again, that MN has a massive racism problem that will never be addressed.

AKissAndASmile · 28/05/2020 13:10

@NotTerfNorCis you are actually a disgraceful person

zscaler · 28/05/2020 13:12

I‘m defending her right to be upset that a man started filming her without consent. She clearly told him to stop, he didn’t and then she said she would call the police.

Three years ago I started filming someone on a street near to where I lived at the time because he was having a fight with his girlfriend, who was holding a puppy, and shouting at her to ‘give me the bloody dog’.

I filmed them because I was worried about what he might do, and because I wanted evidence of a crime if he hit her or attacked the dog. In the event he did neither. He left, and she screamed a few insults at him as he walked away, before going after him.

Was I wrong to film? I certainly didn’t have their consent. I wasn’t being threatened by either of them. Neither of them were committing a crime. I just had a bad feeling about the whole situation and thought it would be prudent to have video evidence in case it was needed.

Do you think that was creepy of me? Should the couple have called the police? Was I intimidating, threatening and wrong to do so?

If you think I was, then perhaps you ought to give some thought to the number of times justice is only achieved because somebody had video evidence of an incident. And then think about how this is especially true when the incident involves black people in America. And then maybe you might start to realise exactly why a black man in America might think it prudent to record an altercation with a white person, and how Amy Cooper’s behaviour proved only seconds later exactly why he was right to do so.

OP posts:
PotholeParadise · 28/05/2020 13:28

He was right to film.

I am on this thread defending him, because it is clear and blatant that she is a manipulative, entitled individual who was willing to make false crime reports when he didn't back down to her argument that she was entitled to ignore the sign. Rather than pretend she just hadn't seen the sign.

But let's be honest. If she hadn't been filmed, whose account of events would be more plausible? Lone dog-walker saying she'd been attacked by a threatening man, or his friends and family saying the late Mr Cooper would never have done something like that?

Didn't a man die this week for paying with a counterfeit banknote? What's going to happen to a man alleged to have attacked a lone woman in a park?!

Even if he hadn't been murdered, things would have been very unpleasant for him, and again his own testimony would have been weak. I have actually met a suspected psychopath who could and would go quavery on the phone to the police in front of you, and they are very, very, very rare. And despite that, I doubt I would have believed Mr Cooper account that she just made a false accusation because she didn't like being told what to do about her flipping dog.

PotholeParadise · 28/05/2020 13:29

*Despite having met someone like Amy, I mean

DioneTheDiabolist · 28/05/2020 13:30

In his place, I wouldn't be going around ordering people about like a self-appointed lawman,
WTF does that mean? What, pray tell, is his place?Hmm

NewYorkStateOfMind · 28/05/2020 13:37

The filming point has been made repeatedly by you, me and others, zscaler and ignored. I doubt there will be an answer, because FWR feminism wants to portray every single woman as a victim always, regardless of status or circumstance. I wonder if they would feel the same if it had been their son, brother or husband. Would they give a random stranger woman the benefit of the doubt over their own blood. Doubtful.

I have felt worried for the future of my mixed race son, as the parents of all black and brown boys are; but the discussion on this thread has made me realise the importance of a body cam for my boy once he's out and about on his own, in case anything happens in a "he said, she said" type situation. He will need to prove he is innocent, because the default position will be his guilt by virtue of being male. I have peak FWR'd and I am out.

gobbynorthernbird · 28/05/2020 13:38

Loads of people tell others to abide by the rules. I've seen it happen plenty of times (from minor things to smoking at a tram stop, to big stuff like assaults). I've also seen people filming those who are breaking the rules. It's a normal thing to do, especially for stuff that the actual police don't have the resources to enforce.

MulticolourMophead · 28/05/2020 13:48

I‘m defending her right to be upset that a man started filming her without consent. She clearly told him to stop, he didn’t and then she said she would call the police.

  1. They were in a public place, so consent isn't required.
  2. He had his phone out taking pics of the birds, according to his statement, so didn't take it out just to film her.
  3. Something in her behaviour before filming began had clearly tripped his radar for potential bad behaviour so I don't blame him for filming.
gobbynorthernbird · 28/05/2020 14:00

Also, she did not call the police because he was filming. In her own words, she was calling the police to tell them that an African-American man was threatening her life. With an iPhone?

DotForShort · 28/05/2020 14:04

Yesterday I read a sobering opinion piece written by an African-American journalist. He wrote that staying home and practicing social distancing have been positive for him in some ways, because he has experienced fewer racist incidents. What a depressing indictment of the state of the world (and not just the US, let's be honest). Here are some excerpts from his excellent piece:

Quarantine has meant I don’t have to have interactions with people like Ms. Cooper. It’s meant I don’t even have to worry about having them. And that’s been life-changing.

Of course, I can’t ignore the more concrete reasons that I’m OK these days: I’ve been extraordinarily lucky — especially considering the way the virus has been ravaging black communities — not to be sick and not to lose anyone I love. I’m not an emergency medical worker, and unlike many Americans, I have everything I need to quarantine safely at home.

But in addition to these privileges, there’s another reason that over the past several weeks, I’ve been less anxious, less angry, less sad. It’s because I’ve spent less time simmering with humiliation and rage over offhand ignorant comments, wondering whether my race is the reason for poor treatment, being preoccupied with how to present myself to avoid or minimize discrimination.

I don’t miss the panic I feel when I see a police car pass by me when I’m walking down the street alone. I don’t miss the way my palms get sweaty as a cashier requests to see multiple forms of ID when I make a credit card purchase. I don’t miss being asked questions about how I “got here” in a classroom of white students who weren’t asked the same. I don’t miss the way I can feel my whole face tense up when a white woman clutches her purse as we pass each other on the street.

All of this adds up. Quarantine has been protecting me not only from the coronavirus, but also from white people.

maggiethecat · 28/05/2020 14:06

Whether he filmed because he wanted evidence of the law being flouted or he felt it necessary for his own well being really should not be a distraction.
It was absolutely chilling watching her approach him a la "I'm going to tell the teacher" pronouncing that she would "get him in trouble" and then proceed to act this out with great performing skill.
You may say that she would have been outraged at being filmed regardless of his skin colour but does anyone think that she would have threatened a white man with calling the police to say she was being threatened by a man?
It's more likely that she was outraged that this black man had the temerity to film her and she thought her threat would get him to stop and when he didn't she had to make good on her threat.
That's the power she felt she had and sadly that power is real.

Pixieblu · 28/05/2020 15:10

I haven't RTFT but some of the responses I have seen have disheartened me as a black woman. I will post this entire article by Ruby Hammond verbatim and the link as well

How white women use strategic tears to silence women of colour
Ruby Hammond

The legitimate grievances of brown and black women are no match for the accusations of a white damsel in distress

That the voices of “women of colour” are getting louder and more influential is a testament less to the accommodations made by the dominant white culture and more to their own grit in a society that implicitly – and sometimes explicitly – wants them to fail.

At the Sydney writers’ festival on Sunday, editor of Djed Press, Hella Ibrahim, relayed the final minutes of a panel on diversity featuring writers from the western Sydney Sweatshop collective. One of the panellists, Winnie Dunn, in answering a question about the harm caused by good intentions, had used the words “white people” and “shit” in the same sentence. This raised the ire of a self-identified white woman in the audience who interrogated the panellists as to “what they think they have to gain” by insulting people who “want to read their stories.”

In other words, the woman saw a personal attack where there wasn’t one and decided to remind the panellists that as a member of the white majority she ultimately has their fate in her hands.

“I walked out of that panel frustrated,” Ibrahim wrote. “Because yet again, a good convo was derailed, white people centred themselves, and a POC panel was told to police it’s [sic] tone to make their message palatable to a white audience.”

Sign up to receive the latest Australian opinion pieces every weekday

Trauma assails brown and black women from all directions. There is the initial pain of being subjected to gendered racism and discrimination, there is the additional distress of not being believed or supported, and of having your words and your bravery seemingly credited to others.

And then there is a type of trauma inflicted on women of colour that many of us find among the hardest to disclose, the one that few seem willing to admit really happens because it is so thoroughly normalised most people refuse to see it.

It is what that writers’ festival audience member was demonstrating, and what blogger and author Luvvie Ajayi called the “weary weaponising of white women’s tears”.

To put it less poetically, it is the trauma caused by the tactic many white women employ to muster sympathy and avoid accountability, by turning the tables and accusing their accuser.

Almost every BW (black woman) I know has a story about a time in a professional setting in which she attempted to have a talk with a WW about her behavior & it has ended with the WW (white woman) crying,” one black woman wrote on Twitter. “The WW wasn’t crying because she felt sorry and was deeply remorseful. The WW was crying because she felt “bullied” and/or that the BW was being too harsh with her.”

When I shared these tweets on my Facebook page asking brown and black women if this had ever happened to them, I was taken by how deeply this resonated, prompting one Arab woman to share this story:

A WW kept touching my hair. Pulling my curls to watch them bounce back. Rubbing the top. Smelling it. So when I told her to stop and complained to HR and my supervisor, she complained that I wasn’t a people person or team member and I had to leave that position for being ‘threatening’ to a coworker.”

For the doubters, here is a mild version of this sleight-of-hand in action:

Jully Black and Jeanne Beker
Notice it is the white woman – Jeanne Beker – who first interrupts the black woman – Jully Black – who takes the interruption in her stride. Black continues to speak passionately and confidently, which Beker interprets as a personal attack on her even though Black is clearly talking in general terms (just as Winnie Dunn was). Beker then attempts to shut Black down by essentially branding her a bully.

Had Jully Black not stopped and repeated Jeanne Beker’s words back at her – “Why are you attacking me?” – they would have passed largely unnoticed, just another woman of colour smeared as an aggressor for daring to continue speaking when a white woman wanted her to stop.

It doesn’t usually end this way. “White women tears are especially potent … because they are attached to the symbol of femininity,” Ajayi explains. “These tears are pouring out from the eyes of the one chosen to be the prototype of womanhood; the woman who has been painted as helpless against the whims of the world. The one who gets the most protection in a world that does a shitty job overall of cherishing women.”

As I look back over my adult life a pattern emerges. Often, when I have attempted to speak to or confront a white woman about something she has said or done that has impacted me adversely, I am met with tearful denials and indignant accusations that I am hurting her. My confidence diminished and second-guessing myself, I either flare up in frustration at not being heard (which only seems to prove her point) or I back down immediately, apologising and consoling the very person causing me harm.

As a trans woman of colour, my words are met with silence | Miss Blanks
It is not weakness or guilt that compels me to capitulate. Rather, as I recently wrote, it is the manufactured reputation Arabs have for being threatening and aggressive that follows us everywhere. In a society that routinely places imaginary “wide-eyed, angry and Middle Eastern” people at the scenes of violent crimes they did not commit, having a legitimate grievance is no match for the strategic tears of a white damsel in distress whose innocence is taken for granted.

“We talk about toxic masculinity,” Ajayi warns, “but there is (also) toxicity in wielding femininity in this way.” Brown and black women know we are, as musician Miss Blanks writes, “imperfect victims”. That doesn’t mean we are always in the right but it does mean we know that against a white woman’s accusations, our perspectives will almost always go unheard either way.

Whether angry or calm, shouting or pleading, we are still perceived as the aggressors.

Likewise, white women are equally aware their race privileges them as surely as ours condemns us. In this context, their tearful displays are a form of emotional and psychological violence that reinforce the very system of white dominance that many white women claim to oppose.