To hope this racist woman loses her job - thread 2

[zscaler]

But Vlad says she doesn't want allies, so what's the point?

The point is, you do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because you might gain something (trust / respect / gratitude / praise) from it.

You do it because all white people have a moral responsibility to dismantle racism, and that shouldn’t be dependent on black people asking us to do it, or being polite, or being grateful for our allyship.

Because it’s the very bare minimum we could and should do.

No? I didn't think so because that's what you would have written first if you had anything worthwhile to say about other people's injustice that has nothing to do with you. Typical.

@notagainno are you saying all white people should take responsibility for it?

@PlantPottingPlantPotting

I actually feel sorry for people like you, that cannot see how you are willing to judge a whole race by a small number. If the world Is full of people like you then we will not get past this will we. To call me ignorant when a number of posters have discriminated against a whole race of people is rather laughable. As it goes, we’re not all the same. Some of us will not walk on by or ignore racist comments & we will stand up for people being attacked in such a way. I hope one day you see this so you believe it

You. Literally. Just. Did.

This is thread 2 about the treatment encountered by a black man called Mr Cooper, which has touched on the brutal murder of a black man called George Floyd. These happened this week, and you want to talk about the achievements of a small group of white people in the past.

You are more upset that no-one mentioned some historical personages (whom you can't name) that the suffering of people this week. How will we move forward if you rest on the laurels of some people from the past rather than deal with the atrocities that are happening today?

The glory of righteous (wo)men in the past is theirs. Reflected glory of others is worthless.

I am reminded (and embarrassed) of my own attitudes as a teenager.

"I only believe in one race! The human race!... We are all the same!... Blah blah..."

It doesn't work like that PlantPotting and there's nothing to be gained by pretending it ever will.

@plantpottingplantpotting
why don’t you mention the small amount of people who never participated in those acts against slaves?

There's no need. The government does a great job of making sure everybody knows about the Wilberforces and Buxtons who campaigned for the amelioration and gradual abolition of the slave trade. But even they were not free of the taint of racism. They still believed in the superiority of the 'white race'.

In 2007 there was much collective backslapping and celebration for Britain's role in abolishing the slave trade. No one should be congratulated for abolishing something they perfected to a fine art and that society still benefits from to this day.

Plus, these few white men didn't 'abolish slavery'. How many of the names of the thousands of enslaved people who fought for their own freedom do you know? Bussa, Sam Sharpe, Harriet Tubman - everyone should know these names and more, and all children should be taught about them.

The same with Suffragettes - we are all taught about Pankhurst and Dickinson, but who knew that women gained the vote in Sierra Leone back in 1792?

There is so much hijacking of history in favour of white people and marginalisation of black experiences that extends to current issues such as that being discussed in this thread. It's become about what certain white people feel and deem in their omniscience to be appropriate and not about acknowledging the grave injustices that are being perpetrated daily.

It might seem like whack a mole, but I think it's important to keep challenging bigotry.
(I know, you shouldn't have to, it's mentally exhausting and upsetting)
You're never going to change the entrenched extremists, they're best ignored.
but for all of those there's those new and thinking and learning on the sidelines, and if it weren't for the reasonable posts challenging outright bigotry, they get bigger and more bolder and suck more people in.
I hope these threads are making people stop and think, there's been some great ones on white privilege and how we can never understand how it feels to be judged for your skin/have your life feared just for being you.

PlantPotting

Here. Read this book. Several different e-formats: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11030

I never said I wanted to talk about them you chose to mention all the negatives and dismiss the small good. Well I’m sorry but I do believe in one race & I treat people all the same. I don’t discriminate against race, sexuality etc. Racism will live on and on because people refuse to acknowledge it & reflect on their behaviour or opinions. The reason white people have stood up and said “I’m not the same” is because of the racism exercised on this thread. That very few have pointed out and the minute somebody does they get punched on by a number of people. If you want racism to live on Carry on as you are.

I've just seen umms post, I didn't know that about voting in Sierra Leone.
Will have to look that up, that's something I've never been taught (learnt about Pankhurst and Dickinson at school but that's it)
The last thread had me reading about Emmett Till.
It's eye opening and horrifying

Wow! Whoosh! Responsibility? No wonder you feel attacked. You called me ignorant first remember and I thought it was so ridiculous it didn't require an answer.

Can you please tell me what this thread's about? And if you know, what's your opinion, if you have any? Given you've been very vocal about other posts on this thread, do you have anything to say about the thread topic itself?

And 1830 in Antigua. These weren't full and free elections, but they are nevertheless part and parcel of the development of women's suffrage. William Cuffay was a leader of the UK Chartist movement which campaigned for adult male suffrage in 1830. He was the son of an enslaved man from St. Kitts. But don't let me digress into these historical topics. I can start another thread for that

The reason white people have stood up and said “I’m not the same” is because of the racism exercised on this thread.

Oi. Thought you didn't like generalisations of white people. That's "some white people". I don't want to be included in your generalisations thank you very much.

@notagainno I think your being rather rude to me and patronising. Regarding the thread. What this woman has done is shameful & appalling. In all honesty I can’t say I don’t understand why BAME People wouldn’t get their backs up. They need WP to stand up for them especially with what happened to poor George. But it’s wrong to put everybody in the same category, WW do have white privileges some use this to their full advantage some don’t, at least give them the benefit of the doubt. My husband is from Ghana, we’ve ensued years of abuse, we’ve had to move away as I grew up in a racist area. It doesn’t mean I am & I’ll stand in his corner and be his right hand man every single time he needs me to. This has struck a cord with me because I’d hate for him to look at me and think I’d use anything against him. I’ve fucked off all my friends, most of my family for what I believe is right & for the person I love. It breaks my heart to think he’d ever look at me & question my loyalty to him

Same. It only happens when it suits some white people.

“if we labelled black people the way white people are being labelled we’d be ripped to shreds”
We are labelled. It's called racism.

And now the tears

@ummh I hope you feel good about yourself. This thread is to share comments, I’ve shared mine with you. But I don’t feel the pain of racism because I’m white.

If I'm being rude and patronising, it's because I've felt you being that way to me first. I usually give as good as I get.

And you having all these things to say but choosing to pick on a part of the picture (notallwhites) rather than the whole picture (Amy Cooper's racism, the general racist attitude by white people towards black people) says a lot. In fact what you've done on this thread is part of the problem.

Again I compare, this is exactly what someone on FWR board will be saying to a man who comes on a post to state #notallmenz instead of speaking up for the general mistreatment of women by his fellow men. He isn't asked to take responsibility for the actions of others but acknowledge and condemn it, otherwise let women vent or fight their cause in peace.

I'm a white woman, it hurts to see what some white people are doing to black people. I believe in one race and different colours but the world as a collective doesn't. The fact is that there are people being mistreated and killed just for the colour of their skin. My idealistic belief doesn't change that and if I truly want to be part of the change, if I truly want it to be one race and different colours, if I truly want equality, it starts with equity. I have to give to those who need it the most. I have to face the ones firing the gun and tell them to stop, not the ones reacting to the guns being fired.

Wrong fight! Missing the point.

@notagainno I apologise if you felt I was being rude to you. Racism is overwhelming and I’ve reacted to some of the comments. But as I said, I hope to god my husband never views me in this way. We’ve literally had most of it, the monkey noises, the chants, the hurtful words so sometimes it’s hard not to react and defend yourself when that’s not who you are and at times your ashamed to be white based on others actions

Thank you. I apologise as well.

The thing is that it's not about how someone views you, you are who/what you are regardless. If your husband knows you well, I'm sure he views you based on who and what he knows. Everybody cannot view you like your husband does and you have to allow for that. They say 'show me don't tell me'.

Coming here all defensive, stating people are being racists for saying all white people when it isn't true is 'telling people'.

Coming here and condemning the action of this woman and that of others who've done similar or worse, assuming that's what you believe, is 'showing people'. Show over and over again, not to be recognised but because there's a war going on. When that ends, we may not even need to fight the little battle because it'll be obvious by then.

Someone said on a post somewhere (can't remember which one) all lives matter but black lives matter too (or something like that).

I say... let's make sure black lives truly matter first (because this is the point) before we can be on equal ground to join hands and say all lives matter. All lives matter is not being contested. Black lives matter is.

@notagainno I appreciate your words, thank you for continuing to engage with me in a civilised way. White guilt can do crazy things to your mind. But thank you again, I’ll continue to follow this thread

I will never understand mumsnet. How very intelligent white women will eloquently and rightly stand up to sexism but a whiff of racism and they can’t just bring themselves to defend and reflect.

On the first thread yesterday, people were bitterly complaining about the social media hounding of poor Amy but these same people I’m sure were happy with the hounding of men like Harvey Weinstein.

Someone explained it on a Post I read on Instagram where she said white women have been historically oppressed by white men who are powerful and hold the most coveted social positions but they have also been conditioned to think that no matter how bad their oppression is, at least they are not bottom feeders like black and brown people.

That’s what played out in the Amy cooper case. The lunatic couldn’t abide this bottom feeder black man telling her what to do so she called on her privilege granted to her by white men. She played her last card fully aware that white cops will ensure this black
Man is put in his place.

White women. Please listen and learn. Don’t argue with something you will never understand. The world is not easy for us Black people to navigate. It
Is exhausting, playing a game that is set up to ensure you fail. It’s the reason we send our 2 boys to private schools, it’s the reason my sons will never go to the US for universities. It’s the reason my mother doesn’t sleep well as my brother lives in Texas. It is the reason I am always tightly wound up when out in public, seeking to defend myself and my sons from a gaze that lingers too long.

It’s the reason we feel that no matter what we do it is not enough. It is the reason we stick together in our own communities.
If you are white and are a good person, it is up to you to learn, Tap into your empathy and adjust. Don’t adopt a superior attitude, challenge your inner bias.

If on the other hand, you believe your race is superior and there must be something wrong with Black people and they are inferior then something is very wrong with you and you are part of the problem. In which case, keep quiet, get off this thread and don’t add to the tension we already feel day to day

This shit is depressing.

@PlantPotting, you've getting people's backs up because you appear to be inserting yourself into a narrative which isn't about you. You've shown very little outrage about the injustice that started this thread compared to the personal offense you have taken over the way people express their general feelings about racism. The experiences your family has endured sound terrible and in another thread I would have responded sympathetically but it's out of place here. With respect, it comes across like you are using it to prove that you cannot possibly be in any way racist. Meanwhile there are other posters who are humbly saying that they try to recognise how racism privileges them as white women and how they try to distance themselves from it, while admitting that they may not always succeed, and above all LISTENING to what black women are saying and trying to understand it without knee-jerk reactions. It's a process of self-reflection that one is not exempted from by virtue of one's job, one's family make up or one's politics.

@PlantPottingPlantPotting You're welcome but I haven't said anything that black women and men haven't already said countless times.....they've said much much more. I'm often quiet on threads like this because I know nothing. I'm only just learning and I still have a long way to go.

Glad you've seen things differently. It starts with white guilt and white shame but you hopefully go from that to white acknowledgement, white acceptance, white understanding, white solidarity. That way you see yourself, not as a victim being accused of what others have done but as someone realising what's really happening to our fellow human beings and standing with them.

I share my husbands pain everyday, it’s incredibly hard for me to accept it’s my own race that’s attacking him. It’s incredibly painful to see this & to live through it. It’s painful to watch my kids start school terrified something will be said or done to hurt them. It offends me when people say I can’t possibly understand it, to see your family be viciously attacked all because of their skin colour. It hurts for people to say I cannot voice my opinion or how I feel because I’m white, we’ve had both ends here, we’ve had white people attacking him & black people attacking me. I’m relatively new to this, so you’ll all have to accept my apologies. This hadn’t been a part of my life for as long as I know. But the other PO is correct, we can’t change the world, we can’t change people, we can only make ourselves better.