Not to be more ambitious for my DD?

[PoorUnfortunateMoles]

I'm a feminist and I always thought I would have a load of lofty ambitions for my DD about her being a scientist or architect, engineer or an artist.
She is very feminine and loves bright, fun, happy, neon things. She loves dancing. She loves Barbie. I'm shocked at how ok I feel about this. Surely if she's happy then there's worse things than enjoying pop songs and dressing up?

Women's worst enemy are women.

As my male friend said to me:

"The main way men have been able to keep women down, is to get women to hate feminine energy, and to hate each other".

Because it is much easier to keep a group of people down who hate each other.

When we begin to support other women, men will not be able to keep us down anymore

When my DCs were five, there is no way that I could have guessed the adults that they would become, not even close. Of course, with hindsight, I can see some of the traits were already there, but not all. It's an interesting journey with surprises at every turn.

Women's worst enemy are women.

As my male friend said to me:

"The main way men have been able to keep women down, is to get women to hate feminine energy, and to hate each other".

Because it is much easier to keep a group of people down who hate each other.

And what was your 'insightful' male friend actually talking about? That hoary old myth about women being 'naturally' cat-fighting, backstabbing bitches?

How strange that the suffragettes actually managed to get anything done, what with all that bitching about Emmeline Pankhurst's hair and that Emily Wilding Davison being an attention-seeking bitch who just thew herself under the king's horse because no one was looking at her.

That bloody Emily Wilding Davison!

*As my male friend said to me:

"The main way men have been able to keep women down, is to get women to hate feminine energy, and to hate each other".

Because it is much easier to keep a group of people down who hate each other.*

Oh silly me, I always thought the oppression of women was because of men. How wrong was I, it's clearly our own fault that we still don't have equal rights!

(for the hard of thinking, that was sarcasm)

Have you heard of a book called "Everything I Never Told You''? It taps into a lot of what you are thinking. Sometimes the doors of opportunity have been closed to us by the very people who were supposed to keep them open.

OP, at 5 nobody is interested in the lives of scientists.

And my first thought at reading your title was, why would you be ambitious for her? Let her follow her own path. Expose her to as much as you can but don't be anything "for her".
Just be a role model in feminism.
She doesn't have to be a scientist or whatever to be a feminist.

Aged 5, DD was all things pink and glittery, and begged to do ballet. Aged 10, she is a short haired lesbian who wears boys clothes and wants to be an engineer when she grows up. Goodness only knows what she'll be like when she's 15, but am not expecting any of the above to be set in stone!

@GreytExpectations that is not the point. Yes it is men's fault, that they keep women down.

But my male friend said - that the reason they are able to keep women down so well - is because women are so nasty and cruel to each other themselsves.

If women actually supported each other and were kind to each other, we would be much stronger as a gender, and men would not be able to keep us down

I disagree with that though. 98% of women have been lovely to me.

There was one woman at work a few years ago who set out to exclude me, and there is another woman at the moment who has made me the lightening rod for her anger. But this isnt the norm.

The norm is that women are capable of having very good relationships with each other

There is a type of woman who doesnt lift others though. Low self-esteem, or maybe an ok self-esteem but very competitive, and passive aggressive.
I read viv groskop"s book lift as you climb and i agree with her so wholeheartedly. We shouldnt be more obligated than men feel to lift those beneath them, but it is a good way to behave. Fearless women lift has they climb. A lot of women are afraid that there arent enough resources.

*But my male friend said - that the reason they are able to keep women down so well - is because women are so nasty and cruel to each other themselsves.

If women actually supported each other and were kind to each other, we would be much stronger as a gender, and men would not be able to keep us down*

@Annamaria14 sorry but I completely disagree with this statement. Sounds like your male friend was just trying to pass the blame onto women so he and other men don't have to feel responsible. Very naive of you to fall for that

Ah my bold isn't working for some reason

I completely disagree with this statement. Sounds like your male friend was just trying to pass the blame onto women so he and other men don't have to feel responsible. Very naive of you to fall for that

Agreed. Nice bit of victim baming.

"Oh it's womens'fault they are so put down in society- because they are so bitchy."

Nothing at all to do with men then.

I was brought up with what would now sort of be similar views. I was told repeatedly that I was the smart one , the smart girls didn't bother with fripperies and make up. I had exhibited some interest and talent in science and a high level of reading. So that was it. That was all I was allowed to do. If I sat trying to read something that wasn't a great classic , with no make up on in what they viewed as the typical , non gender specific "dowdy" image , it was mocked and I was asked why bother with all those silly things.

It did huge damage, I started as a late teen to avoid anything intellectual. Despite a deep overriding interest in women of note (actually anyone of note, scientists , artists etc) I believed it couldn't co-exist with the concept of a feminine enjoyment or anything that did not fit a mould. This is similar to your view here.

Strength , intelligence and feminism do not have to hand in had with a certain interest or stereotype. Let her come to it in her own time, if she wants to.

Every woman who stands and holds to her own beliefs without bending to Men's or societies arbitrary rules for them is a feminist. Every woman who chooses her path because it's what she wants and not what others expect of her is a feminist. Any woman who chooses to live her life on her terms with the cards she has been dealt is strong. That woman can like pink and singing , at the same time as liking punk rock and forgetting to wear makeup for weeks on end. We are who we are, the second anyone tries to trammel that into their own expectations is the problem. Pushing expectations on another woman or girl is the issue, we are not required to live to a stereotype of any description. That is true feminism and true choice.

Why must things be black and white? It’s not loving pink and dancing OR being a conservatively dressed brain surgeon with nothing in between. Human beings contain multitudes

I hate to break it to you but women in STEM careers are not necessarily the feminist pioneers you think. I went into STEM so that I could work mostly with men. I have one female teammate and she is even less of a feminist than me...she goes as far as to think that we should have no female pronouns/specific words and it should just me 'men' regardless of your gender. Then we'd be neutral.

I went into STEM so that I could work mostly with men.

Off topic, but what a very odd reason to go into STEM....

I went into STEM so that I could work mostly with men.

That's a startling admission, if I may say so!

Oh, you got there before me, GreatExpectations!

Don't people, men or women, veer in the STEM direction because they're inquisitive about stuff?

Don't people, men or women, veer in the STEM direction because they're inquisitive about stuff?

I think (or hope) the majority do! The reason stated by PP doesn't really help women at all

But my male friend said - that the reason they are able to keep women down so well - is because women are so nasty and cruel to each other themselsves.

Even if this is true, (and I don't believe it is as black and white as this) surely you have to ask yourself WHY women might be so nasty? What have we been taught? I read a fascinating article a while back that made the point, very eloquently, that IF women are bitchy in work place etc, it's at least partly because they look around and realise very quickly that a) to survive in a man's world they have to be even more "manly? than the actual men and b) there are only very very limited spots at the top for women so if you want your spot, you have to make sure that you are the only women available so that when they're filling their "female" spot, you're the one who gets it.

And who created that system? Who made it so that firms get one female manager in a senior position and immediately stop making any effort because "see, we've got women here"

Who created the system that made it so that if women back each other up they ALL get tarred with a particular brush and suffer accordingly?

Someone once pointed out to me that the old boys network is interesting. Because if a man recommends his old uni buddy's son for a job, for example, and said son turns out to be a waste of space what happens is either no one wants to acknowledge it for fear of angering/alienating the man who made the original recommendation and/or the person who made the recommendation is not blamed for the poor performance.

But this does NOT happen with women. If a women recommends someone for something and that person does not live up to expectations, the original women's reputation is likely to suffer.

But of course, it's all because women aren't supportive of each other.

WHoever's male friend came up with this should probably take a closer look at that friend. There are lots of men like this, supposedly supportive of feminism etc while very quickly making it clear that WOMEN need to change how they behave, not men.

I was naturally academic and STEM inclined. For all that effort I am now surrounded (like most industries) by men who have wives who dont work. There are also the few masculine women who are divorced, support a low earner husband or are childless. I can safely say I have not met any role model in real life whom I admire (for their work or business achievements) and have balanced happy family lives.

Anyway I neither fit in with the girls nor the boys and wish to be a stepford wife. My dd is a bit like me and I tell my DH crazy Victorian notions like, well, the most important thing is we marry her well...

There are also the few masculine women who are divorced, support a low earner husband or are childless.

Hangry I am even more discombobulated now!