To believe theres an increase in cocklodgers and men have lost their pride in providing?

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Just musing this to myself today.

There seems to be a steady increase in cocklodgers in modern day life. Not just on MN but real life too.

Since women have gained better equality in the workplace, a lot of men seem to be taking a back seat or opting out completely in providing. More than happy to let their wives and girlfriends pay the bills or watch them go broke paying for everything whilst they spend their earnings or 'fun stuff' even if they earn more.
They don't cringe or feel ashamed watching their wife struggle. Its baffling.

Its not just that.. But also the pride in providing seems to be gone? Before there was better working opportunities in the work place for women, men were the sole providers for a lot of families. This used to come with some level of pride for men. Most of them WANTED to provide and for their children to be able to do activities like sports, brownies, scouts etc. They were happy to put food on the table. They would be proud their wife was able to get her hair done if she wished and keep the house nice, cupboards full etc.
Now however a lot of men seem to treat their women with almost contempt if they need help financially or don't earn as much?

The thing i find interesting is that women that work and earn more than their spouse dont seem to harbour this same attitude. They're more than happy to provide for their families. They'll buy a new rug for the living room, new charcter bedding for the kids and pay for their swimming lessons out of their own money. They'll also buy their partners nice birthdays and christmas presents.

So its not a two way thing it seems.

I think whats most intriguing for me is that 'wife work' and the 'mental load' still seems to fall majorly to women. So a lot of men havent caught up with that yet. But at the same time most of those very same men still want modern day 50/50 finances. So they dont believe the home is their 'domain' but yet they don't want to be the 'provider' either. How does that make sense?

When i look at previous generations in my family, although my grandfather didn't lift a finger at home in terms of cooking, cleaning and childcare (which is wrong), he was a very proud man and was proud of the fact he was provided a good lifestyle for his family. He was happy for my gran to manage the finances and the kids to go on days out. He was proud he could give his family a lovely house and buy a car.
He would work lots of overtime to provide.
It seems it was the same for most men of that generation.

I could be talking complete bollocks. But be interested to hear your thoughts as to why mens attitudes have changed in this regard? Why is their an incresse I'm cocklodgers and resentment in providing?

YABU = there is no rise in cocklodgers/financially stingy men.

YANBU = there is a rise in cocklodgers and an increase in men not wanting to provide.

a lot of it comes through in attitudes and taking the piss

Spot on! I remember one guy offered to cook me dinner. I asked could I bring anything? Clearly meaning maybe a bottle of wine or a desert or something. He asked me to bring a £40 bottle of whisky! (I didn't). And no he wasn't some rich guy providing me with a luxury meal. He was unemployed and making me sausage and mash! That wasn't the only thing but I won't bore people with the rest! Needless to say, that dinner was the last time I saw him.

I used to try and just take people as I found them and not hold things like being unemployed against them. I mean it could happen to any of us, so I wasn't one to judge. But there are too many people who do try and take the piss.

@toomanyleggings

That is too true to my own situation.

He used to tell me I had saved him (it wasn't my intention and news to me). It looked like he had his shit together, when actually, he hadn't. His mum had died and stepped into her shoes.....

I don't know why the OP's getting a hard time. This part sums it up for me:

I think whats most intriguing for me is that 'wife work' and the 'mental load' still seems to fall majorly to women. So a lot of men havent caught up with that yet. But at the same time most of those very same men still want modern day 50/50 finances. So they dont believe the home is their 'domain' but yet they don't want to be the 'provider' either.

I see this a lot: men who are happy to be "modern" when it suits them but are old-fashioned when it doesn't. Look at all the men who refuse to marry their girlfriends because the institution is outdated and patriarchal, yet strangely agree with the outdated, patriarchal tradition of babies being given their fathers' surname! Or men who live with women before marriage, but don't want their girlfriends to propose because they're so very traditional.

The real issue is when the man doesn't bring any income or very little AND doesn't do much in the house/look after the children.

So the woman ends up being the main earner, doing all the housework,carrying the mental load, raising the children etc.
It's not a sustainable situation, especially since most of the times it involves a high level of manipulation and abuse, otherwise the woman wouldn't still be in the relationship.

It's a lack of respect,love and partnership.

I have no idea about numbers or if they have increased, we definitely hear about it more.

What a ridiculous thread.

I have never needed looking after and to be provided for. I’m a human in my own right and not a ponce.

I do agree with a lot of posters about the cocklodger/sahm double standards on here.

I have met 2 women in the last year who let a bf they had only just started seeing, move into their house because the bf was homeless. I had never come across that before.

I have no idea about numbers or if they have increased, we definitely hear about it more

It may be just that we didn't communicate with other women in the same way - there's nothing else like MN. Over the thousands of threads it's easy to spot patterns.

Completely agree with the OP. And there seems to be no shame when men walk away from their families any more. I've got £100 from xh since he left us 3 years ago, and people still think he's a nice guy.

There were no consequences on him for leaving us, only benefits (freedom mainly).

I feel utterly misled by a society that didn't warn me that very often women must take care of themselves and their dc all alone.

I swear strangers on MN would be more furious with xh for walking away from a loving home and paying nothing for his dc, than close members of my actual family!

Why should men fall into a thankless, derided gender role?

Those silly expectations are dying out, and rightly so.

But another significant segment of them seem to feel maybe subconsciously that women have changed the rules of engagement without consultation and therefore the domestic part of the equation is something they didn't sign up to.

I think this is a good analysis. Not only the above, but women changed the rules of engagement to start competing in the workplace. For some men, there is a sense that they've lost the status that that their fathers had.

Not all men, and even amongst those who do think like that, I think it can be quite subconscious. But I do think there is an unacknowledged backlash against feminism (see also: violent porn).

Not sure why the OP is getting so much flak either. She didn't say men should be sole providers. Surely what she's saying is that, now that women can work, men should be joint providers and also step up to the housework and childcare. She's criticising men who don't contribute adequately to family finances and still expect their wives to do all the housework, cooking and childcare.

Why should men fall into a thankless, derided gender role?

Surely the thankless derided gender role is the unpaid drudgery still largely carried out by women, not the paid and respected role of the main wage earner?

Probable more cocklodgers yes but they’re likely outnumbered by their female equivalent

Men do seem to want women to have a high earning career these days, but seem unprepared to do half the housework, childcare and mental load. So in that sense, YANBU

There is no double standards between cocklodgers and SAHM.

In most cases the SAHM will do the majority or half the housework/mental load and look after the children full time at least while their partner/husband works. Way too many women do it all.

The cocklodger by definition does fuck all. He is either unemployed or has a hobby business that brings little or no money in, but has him conveniently busy enough to avoid looking after the kids. They don't do any housework (or carry the mental load)or very little.

There are no double standards because they're entirely different things/attitudes.

Probable more cocklodgers yes but they’re likely outnumbered by their female equivalent

What is the female equivalent?

@morrisseysquif what happened in the end with him?

I'd rather be alone than with a cocklodger. If I'm going to have all the stress of a high earning job and managing everything at home, why would I want someone adding to the mess and stress but not contributing

I never get on these threads why there are so many protests of “oh but women do this too”. This isn’t a discussion about women, it’s about men. If you want to start a thread about “women who want a meal ticket” then go ahead! No one is stopping you. But you know the reason why we don’t see those threads. It’s because if someone started a thread like that we all know full well that all of us women would be saying “you need to take care of yourself”. Nobody would support looking for a rich man to provide for them as being a sensible and legitimate lifestyle choice. So stop with the “double standards” nonsense.

The thing is that women are capable of being cocklodgers too (perhaps they would be crotchlodgers?) and that usually gets called being a gold digger.

Whichever way round it is, it's not about the income/wealth disparity.

The issue is that (it seems more the case nowadays) that there are women who are going to work and working as much as they can to bring in enough money to support themselves and a bloke who has moved in with them, who refuses to get a job and pisses about all day playing video games and creating more mess for them to clean up when they get home. There are men who pretend to be stay at home dads and whilst they provide a token level of supervision for the children, they make a shoddy job of the childcare, leaving most of it for the woman to do when she gets home from work.

If someone isn't working (and not because they're ill) then they ought to be doing their bit to help the person who is. There are too many women I've come across who seem to be going out to work and providing for both themselves and their partner and they also seem to be having to clear up after/cook for/shop for the partner as though they were a child.

You could argue that women get themselves into difficulties like this by enabling the behaviour and then the man thinks that's the way it's going to be, but you have to ask - what's changed that makes women prepared to accept this dynamic nowadays

I think you are right OP. I think it’s got a lot to do with many people no longer having job satisfaction anymore. Actual jobs are now so far removed from a “product” it’s difficult to see the fruits of your labour. Often, in these kinds of jobs there is little responsibility in the workplace. Low responsibility = low accountability = low self esteem = lack of motivation = so why bother and so on.
Women, even though they are working in the same system, generally are still under the illusion that they have something to prove, work twice as hard to pick up the slack as somebody has to do it. These attitudes then get transferred to home life. Home/work balance is so screwed up already.

I think generally your rose tinted specs mean that YABU ... but. Something that has happened, in the part of the country where I am from, is that the great majority of manual jobs - which would have even done by men like your grandad and my FIL - are gone. Jobs which, once upon a time, would enable a Working man to buy a house, support a family and a non-working spouse, and have a good standard of living. They don’t exist any more.

FIL left school at 15 and joined the Post Office. He worked there for 45 years. He didn’t move up, instead he took on overtime and night shifts to earn more money. He didn’t go to college, didn’t go to uni, never got beyond the sorting office - yet he was able to buy a 3 bed house in a good suburb, change his car every three years, buy a timeshare in Spain and support a family. MIL worked part time, but only once her youngest was in school.

So I think you are totally U to say that “men have list their pride in providing”. Rather “providing” (for a family) is impossible to do on a manual workers salary any more, and not everyone can be a high earner.

There are people-lodgers, not just cock-lodgers. These are the time and energy and finance vampires who try to drain you of whatever they want and need. I've ditched a few wannabee cocklodger boyfriend's who hoped to move in/ marry me, and I assume rinse my bank account based on their debts and other conduct. Their capital had disappeared after redundancy, debt proceedings, divorces and so forth, and they were looking to start-again I think. As these things trickled out in emerging relationships, I was running to the hills.

Due to my professional background, I get quite a few people I don't know well approaching me for advice, filling in forms and so forth as they have heard this is what I do. I am very careful about giving up my time now due to bitter experience, and never let anyone borrow money outside the immediate family as it spells disaster.

There absolutely is. My ex left me for someone who has a nicer house and flashy car that she let him drive, moving in with her after a 4 months. Didn’t last much longer than that though and he ended up fleeing back to his mum’s, much to my satisfaction

You're being naive. There's always been stingy men around. I remember being a teen and going round a living museum and hearing about women managing a household of several children on a wage further reduced by the man taking his beer money out of the wage first. Some employers even paid some wives directly because they knew the man would have drunk the lot away despite having several children to provide for.

It's always happened but a lot of people would have been to ashamed, proud or downtrodden to admit to it.