VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

@AhNowTed

Oh my fucking god not again.

No, definitely a sock puppet.

That’s probably what he was emailing for, GM will have had all that info listed from passports etc

They kept a black book of numbers so I’m sure she’ll have had the dob

Whether you are right or wrong, I hope you have your tin hat on. grin Brave of you to state that. Have you read the whole thread?

I was being ironic. Not brave, just more victim blaming shit. But at least Beaver didn’t tell us off for not respecting middle aged men enough.

Well, I think they're brave to state their opinion if they've read the thread.

Brave is not the word I would use when someone listens to the story of a sexually abused teenager and decides they’re lying.

I've just read the Miami herald link posted by AhNowTed

GM is accused by different women of having a very proactive hand in recruiting.

I found Ransome’s story most upsetting. Imagine only starting to wake up to the horror of the situation when you're on a plane enroute to an Island in the middle of the ocean with no way out and nowhere to run.

Then your passport and phone is confiscated. Even your food intake is controlled. You have no agency at all. Being on an actual daily sex rotation.

For some reason the British press is being somewhat restrained with the full details.

Can I just go off on a tangent about the "sex worker" tangent? If you believe that it's a valid form of work, be consistent.

Y'know usual forms of employment? We have child labour laws, both in the UK and the USA, expressly to prevent exploitation. There are various genuine job roles and areas that under-eighteens simply cannot do, because of health and safety legislation. But suddenly, call prostitution "sex work", and it's all legitimate work, apparently.

And that's not just in this thread. I've noted the phenomenon elsewhere.

Huge cache of records details how Jeffrey Epstein and madam lured girls into depraved world

amp.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article233704797.html

How a future Trump Cabinet member gave a serial sex abuser the deal of a lifetime


www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html

There's more by the Miami Herald who've done a very detailed job compared to the British press.

There should be no trial by jury for rape or abuse. Imagine people on this thread being on those juries.

@Pumperthepumper
I said they are brave to state their opinion if they've read the thread meaning that they are in for a verbal beating.

I'm not making a judgement on what they have said. I just accept that @Beaverdam's opinion is different.
You will never change opposing views by getting angry or insulting people. Anger just eats you up and doesn't serve a useful purpose.

There are various genuine job roles and areas that under-eighteens simply cannot do, because of health and safety legislation. But suddenly, call prostitution "sex work", and it's all legitimate work, apparently.

It's a strange dichotomy, but true.

I've noted the phenomenon elsewhere.

With depressing regularity.

@birdsdestiny

There should be no trial by jury for rape or abuse. Imagine people on this thread being on those juries.
What would you have instead? One judge or a panel of judges? With fewer people is there more chance of miscarriage of justice? Perhaps specially trained judges for sexual offences?

I've been on a jury for a sex case involving a minor which resulted in a mis-trial because 3 of us (me and two men) would not budge from our 'guilty' decision. The appalling things the older women said about the child were disgusting.

Most people don't want to serve as jurors. Maybe there is a case for well trained professional jurors.

Maybe a panel of judges with specific training, I don't know the answer but I know I wouldn't report under the current system.

Maybe a panel of judges with specific training, I don't know the answer but I know I wouldn't report under the current system.
I don't think I would either (even though that could benefit the perpetrator). The girl in the trial where I was on the jury gave evidence by video link and I felt, from comments other jurors made, (the older women, perhaps in their 60s) that even that went against her.

This has jogged a memory for me. I think I may have had knowledge of this or similar conduct at the time.

I was in Fort Lauderdale for an extended time in the latter part of 2000 and a woman I knew, aged about 23 was picked up in a stretch limo by some guy. Apparently they took cocaine, and he asked her to round up other women to come to parties and promised her money and cocaine to do so. She told me and I was WTF? I have no idea if this was anything to do with JE, possibly not as he was based 40 miles away in Palm Beach, but I can see how it happened. Money, drugs and entitlement were rife.

If there was 0 truth in what she’s saying, I don’t think she’d still be banging on about it. She would have gone and hid away in the woodworks as soon as the allegation was denied.

It's a strange dichotomy, but true.

It's very... odd. One the one hand some say it should be classified as work like any thing else, and we are Sex-Worker Exclusionary if we have any reservations about that, but on the other hand, the same people don't seem to have any scruples about H&S, employment regulations or workers' rights. Nary a sniff of risk assessments! Which leads me to think that they don't see it as "work" or a proper job.

Nah, sorry. Putting all my philosophical concerns totally to one side, we have a physical situation involving contact with bodily fluids, risk of sexually-transmitted diseases and long-term health risks. You're not allowed to let 15 year old boys ruin their backs on construction sites or do stuff with asbestos without protective equipment because it's exploitation. Girls are worthy of the same respect, surely?

Ye gods. I've known people to worry more about the physical welfare of office workers who sit in a chair that encourages bad posture!

The line that Prince Andrew used “No. No there was definitely no activity” - so creepy. For me that was v clunky phraseology....”activity” ???

Also his gurning face doing all sorts of contortions as EM read out the Qs. The knitted eyebrows and fake surprise - like he is listening intently and is so shocked hearing such info for the first time when they have been chewing over every detail for decades.

I remember being on a train into London when I was about 18. This older guy came up to me and plonked himself down in the aisle seat so I couldn't get out. He had a coke and a coffee and said something like, I don't know which one you liked so got both. He then went on to try and manipulate me for the next 2 hours to go for a drink with him. Apparently I had walls he wanted to break down. He was at least 40. Although relatively street wise and mouthy, I was totally outmatched and outsmarted. I didn't go as I plucker's up the courage to say my brother was meeting me off the train.

Being 17 isn't like being 25, 30, 40 or over. You don't have life experience. You don't know how to get rid of a guy. You are inexperienced and this is why older predators pick on them, because they know they probably will get what they want. If a man came up to me after 25, I would have swore like a trooper to his face and made a fuss in front of everyone.

Shame on those who think 17 year old girls know what they are doing and are happy to sleep with older, sleeze bags. No they don't. If they do they have either been manipulated into it or they have something seriously amiss.

@ChristmasAngst

I remember being asked out for a drink I the 90s in the high street by a man in his 30s at least when I was 15.

I told him I was 15 and he said we don’t have to have to drink.

I knew he was in the wrong, but I didn’t have the words to communicate that, all I could say was a polite no. I felt I had to be polite.

Kitty2010 the expressions you describe have been described by body language experts as the actions of a person that has been lying since being a small child. It is an infantile action that has carried over into adulthood.

The photo is genuine for sure and the fact he has his hand on her bare midriff is proprietorial. I believe her completely.

The rapid blinking at difficult questions was another nail in his coffin in my view.

Last night I watched interviews on US TV with some of the other women who have come forward. One was 14. He liked them 13-16 basically. Another was 19, and was told not to tell him she was over 18.

*14 when she was groomed.