VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

Last night I watched interviews on US TV with some of the other women who have come forward. One was 14. He liked them 13-16 basically. Another was 19, and was told not to tell him she was over 18.
Are you saying Epstein or Prince Andrew liked them 13-16?

Yes, at 17 you don't have the vocab to fend off someone older and women are brought up to people please and even in difficult situations will think they are in the wrong.

I work with a lot of 17 and 18 year olds. Some of them are very bright but are not streetwise. Chuck in a bit of vulnerability and they are in danger of being exploited.

I never came across this shit when I lived in other countries. There is something sinister about Western culture where paedophiles thrive.

In this article, Virginia Giuffre says that she was "procured" at the age of 15, by Ghislaine Maxwell who was working for Epstein. This was whilst VG was working at Mar- a- Lago, Trump's Florida club/home.
I really do find it incredible, that some (very few) people are trying to blame the victims here, when it is all on record about Epstein and his associates.
There are so many examples from recent history, where the rich, famous and elite have been found guilty of these crimes, which I believe stems from a sense of entitlement and untouchability on their part.

www.npr.org/2019/08/28/754952124/epstein-accuser-calls-on-prince-andrew-to-come-clean-about-sex-allegations?t=1575541947677

JE not PA.

If you watch all the interviews, including VG, documentaries, read the Miami Herald pieces, there’s no way PA didn’t know what was going on. There were so many teenage girls visiting Epstein’s houses for ‘massages’ some as young as 13,14. By all accounts he had a stream of them every day. PA specifically stayed with him at his residences.

"I never came across this shit when I lived in other countries. There is something sinister about Western culture where paedophiles thrive."

Really? It is a huge problem in Indonesia, Thailand, many countries in Eastern Europe and massive in India.
The many grooming gangs prevalent in UK crime were not of Western culture, they were/are Pakistani Muslim, and there victims run into thousands.

www.irenees.net/bdf_fiche-analyse-618_en.html

Another was 19, and was told not to tell him she was over 18.
Who told her not to say this to Epstein?

The many grooming gangs prevalent in UK crime were not of Western culture, they were/are Pakistani Muslim, and there victims run into thousands.

That’s quite racist. Many were born and raised in the UK. Why don’t you think they’re not Western? Because they’re brown?

*Why do you think

Who told her not to say this to Epstein?

One of his female procuresses - not Gislaine in this instance. He had another couple. This incident took place in NY.

This girl was trafficked. That means she could not consent to sex and can't be called a 'sex worker'. That's the only fact that really matters in this case. Questions like where were her parents and about her home life are irrelevant. As are questions about the age of consent.

Women and girls who are trafficked and sexually exploited are always vulnerable, that's how they end up as victims.

PA is clearly a creep IMO, but he didn't commit a crime according to the law at the time. Therefore 'innocent until proved guilty' doesn't apply, as it won't end up in court.

The victim blaming on this thread is just so depressing.

I’m not sure about that - surely it’s an offence to have sex with a trafficked person.

VG reported it to the Met, they just didn’t do anything with it.

I think someone said earlier that it wasn't an offence at the time it is alleged to have happened, because the law had not been updated, but if it had happened now it would be an offence regardless of whether PA was aware of her status or not.

At least I think that's what someone suggested earlier on the thread cannot be asked to remember where!

That’s quite racist. Many were born and raised in the UK. Why don’t you think they’re not Western? Because they’re brown?

People being frightened of appearing racist was what allowed these horrible gangs to flourish in the first place.

I see. I’ve been dipping in and out of this thread, as I can’t stand the misogyny and victim blaming.

Even so our rape laws require the ‘freedom and capacity to consent’ which a trafficked person does not have, even if the trafficking laws wouldn’t wouldn’t have applied then.

@SchadenfreudePersonified, quite. Good point.

Paedophilia isn't a western phenomenon but the concept of paedophilia is if you apply our cultural norms to those of other countries. There are still child bride cultures. The men girls are wed to are not waiting for them to become adults before sex. Men are abusing children where there are no laws to protect children.
In the country I'm from, the age of consent is lower than that of the UK. There is no social stigma where men having sex with much younger women/girls. It's the social stigma/perceived deviant behaviour you need in order to pass laws in the first place.

Where men having sex with much younger women/girls is concerned*

Paedophilia isn't a western phenomenon but the concept of paedophilia is if you apply our cultural norms to those of other countries.

Since posters on this thread have been so careful to use correct terms and to read posts so carefully, it's only right to point out that technically, JE sounds much more of an [[https://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Ephebophilia Ephebophile]]. Which doesn't change the absolute vileness one tiny bit, obviously.

There are countries where it is considered normal to treat women and girls as objects who exist for the pleasure and convenience of men, the reason they don't have paedophiles in other countries isn't because they're better than us it's because they are so backward and primitive that they think it's fine to abuse women and girls
Misogyny is part of a backward primitive mindset

@SchadenfreudePersonified

These are two separate points. It’s not ok to ‘other’ British born Pakistani people as non-Western. That is racist.

@RhinoskinhaveI

RhinoskinhaveI

There are countries where it is considered normal to treat women and girls as objects who exist for the pleasure and convenience of men, the reason they don't have paedophiles in other countries isn't because they're better than us it's because they are so backward and primitive that they think it's fine to abuse women and girls
Misogyny is part of a backward primitive mindset

So there is no misogyny in the developed world? You are a fool.

@TatianaLarina having sex with a trafficked girl certainly is an offence now, thankfully! I suspect it would be a hard case to prove, as the offender would claim he hadn't known about it blah blah.

But at the time this happened the law hadn't been updated, so it means that PA can't be charged. (That's as I understand it, anyway.)

For those suggesting that paedophilia is much more of a thing in the West, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. The actual truth is that the victims are blamed instead of the perpetrators. You hear about girls in their early teens being stoned to death for adultery.

I work with a charity that helps Central Asian women and their stories are just so heartbreaking.

Well the US should charge PA with sex with a minor.