VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

at what point does something you were once OK about become a crime?

If it’s illegal it’s a crime as soon as it is committed. Just because the victim doesn’t know this, doesn’t make it not a crime.

@PippiDeLena

"Why are you trying so hard to defend PA? Your first post was horrifying and I reported it for victim blaming, and now you're saying it was "just straight sex"."
I am not victim blaming. I am not defending PA. We do not know for a fact that he has done anything wrong. There are inconsistencies in VRs statements which were touched on in the interview. There are also things that PA has said that do not stack up and which I don't believe.

We do not know if PA abused VR.

We do not know if PA had sex with VR. (I am of the opinion that they did have sex but there is no proof).

If PA had sex with VR, we do not know whether PA knew that JE coerced her into having sex with him.

If PA had sex with VR, and did not know she was coerced into doing so by JE, then I am saying it is not necessarily abuse.

If they just had straight sex, which may have been the case as it didn't take long, and VR has stated "he was not mean" then it doesnt sound like she was abused by him.

PA may have a big enough ego to think that VR fancied him and they were just two people enjoying sex.

"Are you saying the victim couldn't be too traumatised by being forced to have sex with a sweaty middle aged man because it was "just straight sex" and she wasn't dragged off the street screaming, then beaten to a pulp?"
No. I am absolutely not saying that but to classify him as an abuser is wrong if he did not know she was coerced and if he did not know that she was underage.

The whole thread is full of all of us speculating about what happened. None of us know. I hope that somehow the files that were sealed when JE first went to prison will be able to be be unsealed so that everyone who is guilty of sexual abuse against minors and young women are dealt with appropriately through the courts. That means EVERY person who has committed a crime here. It would actually be good if the secret recordings, sordid as that is, were available to help with prosecutions.

The US should make this a special case and not allow for plea bargaining and guilty people going free.

VG isn’t saying PA committed a crime. No one is saying PA committed a crime.

They’re saying EPSTEIN AND MAXWELL COMMITTED A CRIME

I'm sickened by some of the responses on this thread.

I, too. Always the bloody woman's fault. Even more so when the perpetrators are rich and powerful.

Ghislaine maxwell looks like some sort of bloody minder/security guard for VG in those photos. Like she won’t let her more than a foot away from her.

Yes she was Epstein's victim.
Yes she had a hand in her own victimisation.
If PA slept with her she was over the legal age, but thought she was willing, she never told him no, is he just stupid rather than an abuser?
Is every woman who ever slept with him going to be able to accuse him, or did some sleep with him because they knew who he was, and were using him?

The term “straight sex” simply cannot apply to the VG/PA situation. If it happened - and I’m convinced it did - then no one can imagine it was a mutually pleasurable experience between two equals.

How can you have a hand in Your own victimisation? What does that even mean?

How much money is fair compensation for being trafficked and abused by powerful men? A great deal of money but she got money from the Daily Mail which is the agent of the devil as far as MN is concerned.

It’s really sad that at such an exclusive and high class party, she’s being made to carry the coats.

Yes she had a hand in her own victimisation.
This is a really grim and misunderstood way to look at child trafficking and crimes against coerced women.

"Midas are you in love with Prince Andrew or something? You sound bananas."

You're kidding, right? I think he was attractive back in the day but I think he's an entitled buffoon who doesn't do much work for a living. I'd definitely kick him out of bed.
I'm not keen on him at all but I try not to make judgements on the big issues without looking at all sides and, preferably with actual evidence. (I realise that isn't possible here though).

Is that in some sort of dream you had mummy17?

Yes she had a hand in her own victimisation.

Hands down the worst thing I've ever read on MN.

Awwwwwwwwww those POOR MEN! Poor hapless victims of these wicked underage girls who CONNED them!

Just want to point out, I called this a few pages ago. Mummmy2017 can not resist a victim blame and a poor hapless men post.

Passthecherrycoke.
It happens all the time.
Or why else do children still buy false IDs.

"160k dollars in 2011 was about 95k Sterling."
It was 2015 that the MOS journalist tracked her down and paid over the $160k.

🤣 to buy booze?

No I just hate how people think everything is so cut and dry, when we don't know all the details.

TheMidasTouch

If they just had straight sex, which may have been the case as it didn't take long, and VR has stated "he was not mean" then it doesnt sound like she was abused by him.

Wtf?! What do you think would constitute abuse? Because being flown across the world and coerced into having sex with random men is abuse, and if you won't even acknowledge that then I don't know what to say to you.

Being trapped on a private island with no means of escape, with high ranking members of the social elite who wish to use you for sex, isn’t quite the same as faking an ID to buy a bottle of 20/20 in the local offy.

I think randy Andy's goose is cooked now

@mummmy2017 a few posts ago I thought you were just unwittingly ignorant.

I've changed my mind - you're very intentionally victim blaming.

I don’t know if she’s telling the truth but irrespective of that PA saying Epstein was a useful friend for contacts and fully going to stay at his house after he’d been convicted speaks volumes.

PA should be sent somewhere to live out his days but it won’t happen

The Daily Mail really are on a witch hunt against PA. I wonder why? I don’t think it’s just about selling papers. He’s definitely passed off the wrong person.

JE procured sex for the rich and powerful. He used that sex to build up a network of contacts and made himself extremely rich. His little black book is basically a list of perverts.

I don’t believe for a second that PA didn’t know what was going on. Even the idea of a man like Epstein being seen traveling with a 17-year-old girl in tow and letting other men have sex with her. It’s all do horribly sordid and a decent man wouldn’t have touched the situation with a barge pole.