VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

I thought she was very compelling. Both my husband and I turned to each other afterwards and said PA is finished. We were both shocked that GM doesn’t seem to have been prosecuted and we had the impression there is still a lot more dirt on powerful people to come.

I think he could have got away with brazening it out- saying he was a prince, had a lot of women throwing themselves at him, didn’t know she was any different etc and if he had apologised for his misplaced association etc. By being shifty and evasive he made himself look far more suspicious. Even just the act of staying there for 5 days post JE conviction was bad enough.

@Sarcelle

"VG's dad was on GMB today. He was working at Trump's spa and got her a temporary job there. Whilst there she met Maxwell who said she should come and work for Epstein, they would train her up as a masseuse. She ran it past her dad. He said she should look into it as an opportunity to learn something but he wanted to meet Epstein. He met Epstein at his Palm Beach house and he said he was a rich but normal guy, seemed pleasant and a good opportunity for his daughter."
I wonder whether JE removed all the pictures of nudes from his walls when VR's father visited? If not, then that would make me question him thinking JE was normal. If he did, then could he have also removed them when powerful or the elite visited too?

Could JE have had a public life where he mixed with the 'good and the great' and a secret life where he carried out his appalling behaviour?

Well supposedly they knew where she was & her dad had met with JE & was fine for her to be raining/working as a masseuse for him.

And her mum?

"PA having sex with a teenage girl who had been forced to do it hardly makes him come out of this situation looking like a hero though does it?"

I think that it would be pretty disgusting even if she had consented.

I think that he was always going to have to deny.

if it were with someone that wasn't rich and famous she'd have moved on by now

You don't move on from sexual abuses - or any abuse. You learn to live with it, but it still is there, ever-present, always.

And sometimes it overwhelms you out of the blue, just when you think you have it under control.

"Moving on" is unfortunately not an option.

The thing that made me doubt the veracity of the claim was dancing with Andrew in a well known nightclub in London.

Had all the paparazzi had the night off? Surely Andrew + teenage girl would have them all clicking away.

"And her mum?"

No idea, her mum wasn't mentioned.

You don’t think they let paparazzi in the nightclub do you @cdtaylornats

Why would she lie?

She has implicated HRH and Alan Dershowitz, but denies ever seeing Donald Trump or Bill Clinton, both known Epstein associates at the time.

@cdtaylornats

From this link:

“despite its long list of celebrity clientele – from Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall to OJ Simpson and Michael Caine – as well as the social set - Tara Palmer Tomkinson had her 21st birthday here - it was the royals who were particularly fond of this Mayfair night spot, thanks to its reputation for protecting its guests from the prying eyes of the awaiting paparazzi and media.’

www.tatler.com/article/50-years-of-tramp-the-night-club-loved-by-the-royal-family

Her interview was to massage a naked man.
That is a massive red flag.
She went home to her dad, he must have asked, did he stop it no.
She says she willingly had sex with Andrew after he was sweating all over her dancing.
She asked for the photo, too show people.

Creme I think if he'd been appalled/shocked rather than brazen, he could have said he didn't remember her because he met lots of young women during that time. That he never saw anything suspicious when he was with JE but was happy to talk to the FBI in case anything he did see was helpful. And that he was appalled that his role could have given JE any cover of respectability. Then he should have made a large donation to an anti-trafficking charity.

"Tinkobell

"It would be good if she could explain ‘why now’ ? I realise that she gave the photo to the fbi in 2011, but what’s prompted her speaking out now? I do believe her account. But I’d like t understand what’s changed in her life and circumstances now to make her speak up."
Is it because the Mail on Sunday journalist tracked her down in 2015 and the investigation has been ongoing since then? (She was paid 160,000 dollars for her story in 2015). The investigation only culminated in JE's arrest and charge this year so it has taken time, presumably because of the complexity and number (and power) of people involved.

Also VE says she was abused from the age of 7. That totally skews your perception of normality

I lived with abusive parents, especially my father, until I was rescued by my grandparents at 7. I've had a lot of years of coming to terms with it, and I've also had three rounds of counselling at various points

There's still something that I only realised 18 months ago how shockingly bad it was!

She says she willingly had sex with Andrew after he was sweating all over her dancing

‘Willingly’? When did she say that?

“Her interview was to massage a naked man.
That is a massive red flag.
She went home to her dad, he must have asked, did he stop it no.
She says she willingly had sex with Andrew after he was sweating all over her dancing.
She asked for the photo, too show people”

Where did you get all this from?!

Actually, I’ve just seen that posters username - mummmy2017 often comes on to these types of threads to victim blame and stick up for the poor, helpless man, so probably best ignored.

Yes @mummy2017 where’s your info from ?

The royals talking about women’s rights is going to seriously piss me off, given they protect PA.

@Pumperthepumper I’ve noticed that too.

Ok Pumper 👍🏻
Ringing a bell now too.

TheMidasTouch
I'm not excusing abusers. I'm not losing any sleepover JE's suicide. However, we don't know for a fact that PA abused Virginia Roberts...VR said it didn't last long so I am presuming it was straight sex.

Why are you trying so hard to defend PA? Your first post was horrifying and I reported it for victim blaming, and now you're saying it was "just straight sex". Are you saying the victim couldn't be too traumatised by being forced to have sex with a sweaty middle aged man because it was "just straight sex" and she wasn't dragged off the street screaming, then beaten to a pulp?

There are so many rape myths on this thread ('why was she smiling in the picture?' 'She's only continuing to talk about this because they were rich' 'surely her parents would have stopped her'). It's no wonder the vast majority of women never report their rapes when attitudes like this are common.

And I suspect, it’s the way she’s talking about how horrified and scared she was that’s coming across as false. It doesn’t mean it didn’t all happen, but I don’t think that society at this stage can handle her saying- I thought it was great at the time but it was so wrong.

I can imagine that at the time she might have thought it was all great. She had people like Maxwell telling her that it was all great and that she was lucky to be meeting all these rich and powerful people. I can also understand that now, looking back from a more stable time in her life, she can see quite clearly what happened to her and what was done to her. I say this because I don't think it is strange that she looked as of she was having a great time in the photographs. She probably thought she was having a great time.

As for PA, he came across in that interview as self absorbed and arrogant. I can easily believe that he was quite able to convince himself that all of the very young and beautiful women he was introduced to were delighted to meet him and do whatever he wanted them to.

Neither of those possible misperceptions make what happened in any way right. Part of the way abuse happens is that abusers are able to convince the abused that what is happening is good and right.

No excuses at all for PA. He was not some innocent or gauche young man. He was a middle aged man with daughters of his own and should have been easily able to understand that whatever those young women might have thought they wanted at that moment, they did not deserve to be used for his fleeting pleasure.

I do hope it’s not because Epstein’s death has meant the hush money has finally ran dry and she does have more robust rationale.

What hush money? The money she didn’t have when she ended up living in a trailer in Colorado having had to leave her home in Florida for fear of reprisals after she made the first allegations?

@SimonJT

"She was underage, the legal age for a travelling American is 18. She was also coerced which removes her ability to consent."
I didn't realise about the federal law. I, obviously incorrectly, thought the age of consent of the country the act took place in would prevail (i.e. 16 in UK).

It hasn't yet been proven that she was trafficked to PA by JE and also hasn't been proven that PA knew about it.