to think that WW2 ended nearly 75 years ago so why the fuck do certain politicians keep going on about it when it comes to Europe?

[chomalungma]

It ended nearly 75 years ago. It was such a tragedy for the world. Countless people died, countless people were injured, Lives devastated, countries ruined. Many brave people fought for what was right, put themselves on the line and did acts of incredible courage. We should remember what they did and honour their sacrifice and courage.

But it was 75 years ago. Our relationships with our European neighbours are different. We should have moved on from that. Yet we still have this WW2 mentality from politicians who weren't alive at all during those times. Who have to constantly say that "We saved Europe from Germany and the Nazis".

It's what is wrong with this country. Stuck in the past. Empire days. Harking back to the war era.

I love Europe. I have no issues with Germany. I have been there many times. What happened was a long time ago. I wish that others could move on as well.

hy can’t they just give us our freedom like we gave them theirs

But this kind of comment is exactly the kind of comment I am talking about.

“Just like any other Prime minister then.”

No. Just like any other party leader.

It was Berlin that was split into three sectors not Europe.

'And the way they are treating the uk when we say we want to leave is as good as bullying if you don’t do what we say we will make you pay.'

How are they bullying the UK? The only stumbling block is the backstop and the EU have said they will listen to legit alternatives, the UK government haven't come up with any feasible ones, that will protect the GFA. So leavers cry bullies. Yeah right. Also I have read this whole thread and find it so funny how when it comes to WW2 history suddenly become so important, yet when i and others posted about the British involvement in Irish history some Posters tell us to get over it and move on. It's over why are we going on about it. So it's only certain history events that are important enough, the rest must be swept under the carpet

BertrandRussell
No. Just like any other party leader.

Yet we don't vote for leader in the general elections, we vote for policies and vote the party in.

just like any other Prime minister then.

The only other person "elected" by so few that I can think of is Theresa May.

And you haven' t addressed my point about Cummings.

The only other person "elected" by so few that I can think of is Theresa May.

Ever heard of Gordon Brown?

And you haven' t addressed my point about Cummings.

Ever heard of Alastair Campbell?

I thought the point about Cummings is the concern that he is setting the Conservatives agenda whilst not being in anyway affiliated to the conservatives. Of course he's not actually supposed to be working for the Conservatives at all (for election purposes) as he's employed to work for the government and paid for by tax payers. No doubt he is a clever operator but query whether he's acting in the long term interests of the Tory party.

Alastair Campbell was a long term Labour member and therefore his views were well known. As campaign secretary and then press secretary he followed the Government line - he didn't set the agenda because he already had bought in to it. No doubt being a bullying bastard whilst he went about it.

Not sure I've explained myself very well but I think they are very different animals. Will be very interesting to review Cummings role when we are a few years down the line - at the moment he looks like he's shattering much of the standard internal workings.

Well, this thread has certainly gone on a tangent.....

I completely agree with you OP. There are so many little Englanders on Twitter that act as if they personally won the war, despite being in their fifties, if their photos are anything to go on. I don't really know why there are so many people mired in a false view of the past rather than seeing the world as it is now.

It's embarrassing when you see them lording it over posters from other countries, despite often having worse grammar and spelling than many of those for whom English is a second language. I used to be proud of being British. I naively believed in a sense of British modesty, tolerance and understatement. Recent events have completely rocked that view of my fellow countrymen.

Actually I forgot about Brown, so I'll give you that. But I knew you'd mention Campbell, who I couldn't stand.

However it doesn't negate my point that it's a bit rich to bang on about "unelected" officials in the EU, when we have them here.

StarbucksSmarterSister

And you haven' t addressed my point about Cummings.

Because I agree that he is unelected and is not affliated with the party that he is setting policy for.

StarbucksSmarterSister

However it doesn't negate my point that it's a bit rich to bang on about "unelected" officials in the EU, when we have them here.

I disagree with the system here as much as I do with the system in the EU. (Just to preempt responses) yes I have campaigned against both.

There are so many little Englanders on Twitter that act as if they personally won the war, despite being in their fiftis

The pictures and the memes they post say a lot about them.

Along with the words like No Surrender, collaboration, traitors....we aren't at war.

@fuzzyduck1

You have some very distorted views of the EU and the Germany of the 30s and 40s.

Unless you are in your 90s and fought in WW2, then you didn't free anyone, what you are doing is hanging onto the coattails of those that did, which is despicable.

The EU signed the WA and it is only the UK that is stopping itself from leaving, monies owed was negotiated in good faith and signed off.

There is no bullying or punishment, well only from the UK side with their threats to EU citizens and money owed.

And the way they are treating the uk when we say we want to leave is as good as bullying if you don’t do what we say we will make you pay.

We haven't left as Boris and his ERG pals blocked the WA agreement. Why do you blame the EU over the DUP, the MPs in Westminster, May and her red lines or Cameron for not coming up with a better referendum question that demonstrated whether voters wanted No Deal/Deal/Norway model?
The GFA and backstop is not the EU's fault. Their allegiance will naturally be with Ireland who is a member and they've said that they are willing to discuss other solutions to this issue. The Tories are being awkward by not compromising and having a border in the Irish Sea.

What we're dealing with here.

@Patroclus, that clip is unbelievable and I bet the author has no real clue about hardship. She’s claiming the suffering of older people as her own to justify Brexit.

WW2 obsession is a sickness in our culture. There are many people who use ‘we’ for everything as though they were actually fighting or helping Churchill in the war cabinet. It’s weird. Teaching of history in schools needs a complete revamp and injection of reality to help combat the embarrassing levels of superiority complex and jingoism. There are people who still have no idea how many other countries were involved on the allied side and their huge levels of involvement. Britain could never have won WW2 alone.

We have German friends who we first met in the 80s. They came to England for the first time and they were really struck then by the amount of tv devoted to the war. Allo Allo, dad's army etc. They couldn't believe we hadn't 'moved on' . I hadn't even noticed because it was just background noise. But this background noise has been so infiltrating to our psyche and 30 years later we still haven't 'moved on'. I agree with them.

I know people in their 90s, 80s
The wars were real for them & their families. Rationing went on to the 1950s

We now live in a completely different era

Perhaps, people need to read up more about the history about what occurred

TorchesTorches they dont talk about it because they did monstrous things and lost!

@fuzzyduck1 please stop with the insinuations that the EU is acting in any way like a dictatorship. I come from Eastern Europe - that part of Europe that was not freed after WW2 but instead suffered from occupation and dictatorship for the better part of half a century. I can tell you what dictatorship looks like and the EU isn’t it.

Nowhere else has transition from dictatorship to democracy and economic prosperity been as peaceful and (so far) as enduring as in Eastern Europe - and NATO and the EU had a lot to do with it. Many in Eastern Europe are still struggling, and poor but you only need to look at the incredible struggles of Ukraine, Moldova or Belarus to see the difference membership can make. The expansion project wasn’t an empty fucking dream for me, I became an EU citizen as an adult and it made a massive positive difference to my life.

It also emboldened generations of people to demand better rule of law, economic and social reform - do you have any idea what it takes to achieve that when for the past 50 years you lived with the reality of political prisons, propaganda and censorship?

It may not feel like a big deal to you - indeed you may not care about peace or stability in Eastern Europe as many in the UK have said to me recently. But I look at the rise of nationalism and populism across the continent and in the UK and feel terrified that we are so quick to forget where this path has led us in the past.

Of course the EU isn’t perfect and neither is any individual member state but a) it’s a hell of a lot better than dictatorship and b) before we hasten to throw the reality of the EU in the bin I’d like to just once hear what we should replace it with. Because this stupid nationalistic discourse will not lead to peace.

Well said, Iron Curtain.