to think that WW2 ended nearly 75 years ago so why the fuck do certain politicians keep going on about it when it comes to Europe?

[chomalungma]

It ended nearly 75 years ago. It was such a tragedy for the world. Countless people died, countless people were injured, Lives devastated, countries ruined. Many brave people fought for what was right, put themselves on the line and did acts of incredible courage. We should remember what they did and honour their sacrifice and courage.

But it was 75 years ago. Our relationships with our European neighbours are different. We should have moved on from that. Yet we still have this WW2 mentality from politicians who weren't alive at all during those times. Who have to constantly say that "We saved Europe from Germany and the Nazis".

It's what is wrong with this country. Stuck in the past. Empire days. Harking back to the war era.

I love Europe. I have no issues with Germany. I have been there many times. What happened was a long time ago. I wish that others could move on as well.

No it wasn't

Closer union and easy trading and FOM certainly does help reduce the chances of such an event happening again, doesn't it?

otally disagree, OP, 75 years is nothing. We must try more actively, not less, to remember the past. If we don't try to understand the past we understand nothing

Can I ask what you think I am saying in the OP?

To BertrandRussell - I didn"t know about the jewish refugee status in 1942, so I stand corrected there, but I still don"t think that makes Britain complicit in the holocaust.

I agree with the OP that whatever lessons we should remember from ww2 the idea that "good old blighty" stood alone and saved the day is a shit one to ficus on and pretty inaccurate to boot. It is embarrassing how readily these analogies are being trotted out.

A lot of british people have this idiotic dads army home front vera lynn idea of the war. They ignore the realities and especially the horror of the eastern front and East Asia

Ribbentrop-molotov certainly did not happen with the quiet approval of Britain.

I think some pp may have missed the point by the OP. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong chomalungma, is saying that whilst we should not forget, we shouldnt use the war as a stick to beat others with.
The best example I can come up with to illustrate the point, is:

You have a friend Sue. One day you see a group of men beating and kicking Sue, so you run in, without thinking of your own safety, to save Sue.
Sue is really grateful.
10 years later: Sue sets up a club, £10 a month subscription and you get great discounts and deals.
You tell Sue you still want to be part of the club, but dont want to pay £10. When Sue objects, you tell her "I saved you from being beaten up, you could have died, so you should be grateful to me"

20 years later: You and Sue have a great reciprocal agreement, you tutor Sue's daughter and she cuts yours and your family's hair for free. You tell Sue that you no longer want to tutor her daughter, but still want free haircuts. When Sue objects, you tell her "I saved you from being beaten up, you could have died, so you should be grateful to me".

I hope that's a good analogy to explain the OP

I hope that's a good analogy to explain the OP

That's a good analogy. I am sure other people can add to it.

Isn't it only about ten years since we finished paying our debts off to America for fighting to free Europe

The US didn’t “free” Europe.

winter

She said we fought to ‘free’ europe

We incurred debts while doing so

Ffs the bloody Russians won WWIi. Britain's effort whilst important was not key and did not win anything.

That is the lesson we have failed to learn as far as I am concerned. Russia was and is powerful force in Europe even if only because of its size and population relative to other EU countries. The breaking up of the EU ( which will almost certainly follow on from Brexit' in my view) gives them more power, particularly economic power which the EU has monopolised in Europe over the years. Whesther that is a good or bad thing for us is to be seen, but I fear the latter.

I didnt take news post as saying we did anything single handed

I took it to mean that while we fought to free Europe (which We did, we certainly fought even if we did not do it alone and whatever anyone thinks about the input of other countries) we incurred debts

Oops sorry bumbling i assumed you were referring to news post

You probably weren’t

No my post was a general one. Not answering anyone in particular but I do think we need to really understand that we can argue about why the EU was created but an undeniable effect was a closer union with less likeihood of a big war happening

Of course we still had internal fighting over borders in individual countries ( the troubles here , catalsn separatists etc) and a war in what was called Yugoslavia then ( though they were not EU members ). However on the whole Europe had a period of almost unheard of peace, particularly within the EU countries . Historically there has almost always been war in Europe someehere. . How could there not be with so many countries in a relatively small space, fighting for resources and power

. Britain and France were almost always at war until a hundred or so years ago.

Well a.bit more than a hundred years a suppose but not massively more than that

Ffs the bloody Russians won WWIi. Britain's effort whilst important was not key and did not win anything.

I'm not even British, and I know you're wrong.

However, STOP saying RUSSIA. You cheapen the deaths of tens of thousands, even millions, of SOVIET soldiers, from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan. RUSSIA could not have "won" the war without the 4,000,000 soldiers from the above republics (excluding RUSSIA)!!!

Actually I think that in Europe the role of the Soviet Union was crucial to win the war. Also don't forget that things were very different in some European countries- Switzerland or Spain for example. Things like these don't fit the plucky Britain les dig the free world narrative so they are airbrushed.

leading not les dig

FFS autocorrect

Tbf, Sue doesn't sound massively appreciative.

I'm Dutch and it always annoys me if American or English people say that they freed us in WW2. I wonder where they were when all those Canadian soldiers were here then kicking the nazi's out. Oh, and the Canadians don't boast of it either generations later.

Pretty rude attitude there Cranston, especially on the anniversary of Market Garden. The Canadians were counted as British commonwealth forces and a lot of them were proud to be called so. That only changed in the mid 80s. The Dutch also made up the largest foreign contingent of the SS, so I'm not sure they would be liberating themselves anytime soon.

As it happens i cant stand people droning on about it and claiming the 'glory' as their own, but those sorts of statements are equally ignorant.

What became the EU was a direct result of WW2. Traditionally Europe worked by the great powers balancing out into alliances (germany, austria, France, Russia) and the UK using its navy for defence whilst focussing elsewhere in the world. Of course this often went to shit and as a result the '2nd world war' really wasnt only the 2nd world encompassing war (a lot of historians count the Seven Years War as the first ever world war). WW2 started especially due to Germany's economic collapse and continued nationalism unresolved by the Great War.

From WW2 to the EU- www.cvce.eu/en/education/unit-content/-/unit/7b137b71-6010-4621-83b4-b0ca06a6b2cb

80% of the German army was destroyed by the USSR, and 26 million soviet citizens died. Make of that what you will. Though of course the fact is the USSR were almost allies to nazi germany and wanted to keep it that way right up until the invasion in 1941 (which was a direct result of the loss of the battle of britain). It was a group effort, simply. Britain would have survived but not won the war without USSR or America. USSR might initially have collapsed in 1941 without the western allies lend-lease shipments.

Pretty rude attitude there Cranston, especially on the anniversary of Market Garden.

I didn't realise that this was an important anniversary for you. I'll see if I can reply on another day this week.

n't realise that this was an important anniversary for you

It's the 75th anniversary of Operation Market Garden. 1000s of British, American and Polish troops went into Holland by air and land to try to open an alternate route to Germany. Sadly it failed. Many soldiers died and the civilian death toll was awful - as were the impact on the Netherlands.

I was there recently. The effect on Arnhem was awful. A town devastated. Yet the people of Arnhem do not blame the British for what happened there. They still honour the attempt to liberate them and every year, school children put flowers on the graves of the dead. That is an amazing tribute.

And 75 years later, the Dutch have good relations with Germany. They are in the EU, they work in each others countries and trade together. I think that is quite something. To be able to remember what happened and to pay tribute to the soldiers of a country that came to liberate you and to also have good relations with the country that invaded you and was responsible for so much pain your country.