to think that WW2 ended nearly 75 years ago so why the fuck do certain politicians keep going on about it when it comes to Europe?

[chomalungma]

It ended nearly 75 years ago. It was such a tragedy for the world. Countless people died, countless people were injured, Lives devastated, countries ruined. Many brave people fought for what was right, put themselves on the line and did acts of incredible courage. We should remember what they did and honour their sacrifice and courage.

But it was 75 years ago. Our relationships with our European neighbours are different. We should have moved on from that. Yet we still have this WW2 mentality from politicians who weren't alive at all during those times. Who have to constantly say that "We saved Europe from Germany and the Nazis".

It's what is wrong with this country. Stuck in the past. Empire days. Harking back to the war era.

I love Europe. I have no issues with Germany. I have been there many times. What happened was a long time ago. I wish that others could move on as well.

I haven’t read the thread, but just in case nobody’s pointed it out, the veterans returning from WW2 very quickly voted Churchill out of power, and voted in a government that promised social reform, care for returning soldiers, and the beginnings of the welfare state. The Churchill myth is still very powerful in the minds of Little Englanders.

I am interested in this view from a previous poster as it is a point of view that never seems to be voiced these dayes:

I heard a journalist, with decades of experience in war zones, disagreeing with the well known view of 'learn your history so you don't repeat the mistakes of the past'. He thought that actually we need to forget our history because it just passes resentment and aggression down through the generations.

I think this is worth reflecting on - I think we almost fetishise remembrance now for its own sake, but the idea of remembrance started so that we learned lessons from the past. If we remember while repeating the same mistakes, then that rememberance is worth nothing - it is actually an insult, in may ways, to the fallen. It would be better to forget than remember without context.

So I don't really care if people stand on beaches with trembly bottom lips if they then go and vote for politicians that seek to break our ties with Europe and threaten the fragile peace in Ireland.

Winterlife yes of course you are right, although not sure why you think it is relevant to what I had to say. The countries I mentioned were merely illustrative and were not meant as an exhaustive list. The point remains the same, WW2 involved sacrifices from almost all countries around the world, including Germany, and was won due to the efforts of people from many nations.

The same anti-German WW2 rhetoric is rife in Greece and was used against the EU during the recent economic crisis. The rhetoric of greatness, sacrifice and national pride based on the WW2 is not unique to Britain.

The scariest thing though is that all this rhetoric and nationalistic pride is hiding the fact the Britain is now a fascist state. It's policies for the last few years have been led by an unelected fascist who is bankrolled by people who wish to remain hidden, it's PM is unelected and openly claiming he will defy the Courts and the law, its ruling party does not have a Parliamentary majority and its Parliament is closed. This is what fascism looks like. There are no fireworks and big announcements, it creeps in step by step until it takes over.

They also conveniently forget that for much of the 30s Britain sought to appease the Nazis and public opinion was very much against confronting Hitler.

Public opinion was against another war after the terrible years of 1914 - 1918.

A lot of the destruction and devastation being caused by the British empire went on after WWII.
A certain section of British people today want to remember their glorious past and think other nations should be grateful but want to deny any responsibility for the huge devastation Britain caused all over the world.
The GFA is a very clear example but it goes far beyond that.

Let’s put it this way: without Britain, Luxembourg would not exist, but without Luxembourg, Britain would still very much exist

You don't know that at all, it is this attitude that the OP is complaining about.

The least we might expect is the courtesy and civility that normally obtains amongst national leaders

It was Johnson who stood up PM Battel, 50 noisy protesters vs BJ and a modern loud PA system.... BJ loves to be adored but like Trump he cannot cope with criticism, he runs away from public scrutiny at every opportunity.

Very bad form from our PM.

the veterans returning from WW2 very quickly voted Churchill out of power, and voted in a government that promised social reform, care for returning soldiers, and the beginnings of the welfare state. The Churchill myth is still very powerful in the minds of Little Englanders.
Yes. The people who fought and lived through WWII are in their 80's. A greater proportion of them voted remain. The people who are now crowing about the war have benefitted from peace and prosperity in part because of the EU and have lived off the reflected glory of others.

“The least we might expect is the courtesy and civility that normally obtains amongst national leaders”

Like Boris Johnson showed to Leo Veradker?

@Booboostwo Russia was not a country at that time. Yes, I know it’s pedantic.

the veterans returning from WW2 very quickly voted Churchill out of power, and voted in a government that promised social reform, care for returning soldiers, and the beginnings of the welfare state

Yep and solved the housing crisis at that time, with a large program of social housing, with cheap rents, we've certain ignored that lesson from history.

the veterans returning from WW2 very quickly voted Churchill out of power, and voted in a government that promised social reform, care for returning soldiers, and the beginnings of the welfare state

And after a single term of a socialist Labour Party, they promptly voted Churchill and the Conservatives back in again!

And after a single term of a socialist Labour Party, they promptly voted Churchill and the Conservatives back in again!

Not entirely true, the 1950 GE was in fact again won by Labour, who increased their vote share but gained only a 5 seat majority... unlike today, Attlee decided the honourable thing was to call another election in 1951 and lost!

3 terms of Tory government followed, before we had 2 terms of Lab... whats you point?

“And after a single term of a socialist Labour Party, they promptly voted Churchill and the Conservatives back in again! ”
A sonwwhat simplistic view of post was history, @CendrillonSings ! I note that you haven’t commented on how rude Johnson was to Veradker at their recent press conference, by the way.

*post-war, not post-was!

I agree OP. Equating Brexit to Dunkirk or the Blitz is offensive as it minimises and disrespects the suffering and the sacrifice of those involved.

We fought the good fight as a nation and alongside our allies emerged victorious. We should be proud. Brexit is a political decision. If it is correct we shouldn't need a Blitz spirit, otherwise it is self flagellation in the pursuit of an ideology. That isn't anything to be proud of.

I'm as proud as anyone of the war effort. I wear my poppy, attend the memorials and parades. But these facebook posts, one was like an old soldier with a caption. 'How dare you say the older generation stole our futures, without our youth you'd have no future' Is that really how we want to be?

Though I suppose relating Brexit to gratitude for saving a country during WWII explains why the UK will be dismantled and given to the Americans after Brexit.

I think the OP is referring to the romanticising of the ‘blitz spirit’ and the War by a certain type of politician

This is all too accurate. There are a lot of very jingoistic and, to be blunt, not terribly well educated people out there who lap this stuff up. People who call Brexit ‘Our Dunkirk’ and think ‘Sorry Fritzy, this is the nation that survived WW2 - we can handle No Deal!’ is a positive message. If ‘Not quite as bad as the war’ is the best we can say for Brexit, it probably isn’t that great an idea. Yet the ‘People pulled together in those days, you could leave your doors unlocked’ brigade continue to stare misty-eyed at old Pathe News clips and wave the flag for so-called sovereignty. It’s an absolute gift to Boris and his cronies. I’m surprised he hasn’t sent Vera Lynn to handle the final negotiations.

I saw a brilliant article on this recently titled ‘We need to stop pretending the 75 year-olds of today fought WW2’. It’s so true. For years, dare to criticise anyone over a certain age and ‘How dare you, these people fought and died for your freedom!!!!’ would be thrown at you by a certain section of society. These people don’t understand what to do now that they no longer have this argument - so they keep on making it anyway and hoping no one will notice. As a PP said, a higher percentage of over 80s - the only people with even a chance of remembering the war first-hand - voted to Remain than 65 - 80 year-olds. That’s pretty telling.

The truth is that the crowd who think they understand the horrors of war because they change their Facebook profile picture to one with a Union Jack background or a poppy frame every November are actually the ones who have diminished it. They have made WW2 into a point of patriotism they can boast about with zero effort. The same people who are so proud of defending the honour of those who fought for our freedom would argue for you to be strung up from a war memorial with a Union Jack if you think that freedom extends to deciding not to wear a poppy.

In my mind mentioning the war is basically saying that you have run out of actual arguments. I think the EU leaders have been incredibly restrained if you consider the amount of vitriol and lies that they have been subjected to. All Bettel did was to refuse to move the press conference indoors as it’s a free country. The Brits protesting have every right to be angry: Brexit threatens their ability to live and work in Luxembourg and could jeopardise their pensions too. A lot of Brits in Luxembourg work for the EU so we’re talking job losses too. Luxembourg has already naturalised a lot of them.

Luxembourgers understand the need for European integration. It is a very small country, where around half of the population are immigranta. They speak a median of 3 languages and every day, thousands of people cross the border to work. Even before the Euro, the Luxembougish Frank was equivalent to the Belgian Frank. Luxembourg as a founder member has always punched above its weight in producing notable Eurocrats (Juncker, Schuman, Werner etc.).

If a PM (who by the way is known as a very mild mannered chap) gets frustrated by a certain Mr Johnson posturing around, making meaningless statements without much in the way of actual technical clarity, I am not surprised. Enough is enough.

Veni do you think that “14 year old Hitler Youths” had much understanding or choice about what they were doing?
Of course we need to honour and remember people from all sides who died and hopefully learn lessons from both world wars but the negative attitude to Germany that a lot of people still hold is ridiculous.
It’s bloody typical of too many people in this country who think we can still trade on our name as a “saviour “ Europe or even as a great colonial force.
We are one small country now and we need to realise that

And as for “Dunkirk spirit “ we had failed and were running away!

Yes- I think a lot of people think Dunkirk was a glorious victory!

I've always loved the story of Dunkirk though, of all the war stories. Some of it is said to be overstated - but the small boats all coming together to help the whole nation's - and allies - land forces to survive, to give us a fighting chance of coming back. That's co-operation. That's the founding principle of Europe. Op's right, the way these things are being co-opted by the far right is disgraceful, and exactly what the war was fought against.

The view of the war in some quarters in the UK is truly shocking - a nationalistic, crazed rewriting of history. Unbelievably, for some the main lesson drawn from the war is to hate and distrust your neighbour. It goes down very well with millions of voters. Dark times indeed

My Mother was German. I expect the negative view of Germans some people hold to persist for the rest of my life. 16 year old DS got his first taste of it recently.

DH’s surname is old English but people who don’t know how to pronounce it often make it sound Germanic as they call it out in hospital waiting room. If things get bad then the DC have the option to use my surname which is very British.