AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

Obviously I know British people were bombarded with British propaganda against the Irish Catholic Nationalists, but given that this is a BBC documentary, will you please listen?

It's worth mentioning, apart from the whole documentary which is interesting, that the first RUC officer to die during the Troubles was shot by Loyalists, not the IRA.

I have no idea, we were not taught about it in schools, but always assumed it was the British, one more period of unrest in the hundreds of the years of trying to conquer Ireland and get it to conform.

I’ll be watching tonight to alleviate my ignorance. I was born and educated in England but my mum’s from ROI and my great grandfather sold away the family estate and gave all the money to the IRA, for which he was a bomb maker. I also shamefully know next to nothing about what went on then in the early 20th century either.

Thanks for sharing.

I.e. assumed it was the fault of the British not that they physically started it. I have no idea...

As an Irish person I'm glad you're showing something unbiased over there, instead just blaming the Irish savages

I would say it depends how far back in history you want to go.

Depends how far back you want to go! I have always blamed the Fitzgeralds of Kildare for rebelling against English rule in the sixteenth century. But others would say it was Queen Elizabeth 1.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_uprisings

I blame Brian Boru

I blame everyone but we definitely escalated it

I might be wrong but I got the impression that Ian paisley played a far greater role in stoking up tensions than previously thought and was actively involved in planning the bombing of public utilities to undermine the pm of Northern Ireland. Also that the army wasn’t seen entirely negatively by the catholic population initially. Really eye opening

I just assumed most people knew the English started it because they fucked Ireland over repeatedly throughout history.

Ira or loyalists in the period known as the troubles were the effect of the shit started by England. Not that I’m excusing either but England was the root cause.

Similar to Franz Ferdinand not being the real cause of ww1, it was just the final straw.

I’ve not yet watched the documentary, so this might not be relevant here, but it does piss me off when England, posing as Britain, starts being analytical and moral about other countries, whether that be Ireland, slavery, Indian partition, etc with little or no acknowledgement they have red hands.

And I say that as someone from generations of English people. The only Irish blood was a profit of shitting on Ireland pre famine and the Scottish blood again about gain in the 17th century so I’ve certainly got no reason to be biased against England because our habit of shitting on other countries certainly has been to my families benefit.

It wasn't me.

It started hundreds of years ago when Elizabeth I took land away from Irish lords and gave it to her mates, afaik.

I'd say it goes back further than Elizabeth 1st. But that's when things really heated up.

Wasn't it the fault of the Normans?

The English. I was talking to an English friend about the troubles and was really surprised that English kids were taught a load of lies about NI. She's late 40's, hopefully history lessons are better today.

Oliver Cromwell

I'd say it goes back further than Elizabeth 1st. But that's when things really heated up

Probably. That's what I learned at school in my History GCSE though. we started with Modern World Studies and the history of the NI conflict so at least I have some idea about it.

Wasn't it the fault of the Normans?
^ This. It started with the Normans.
The Normans of England in the 11th/12th century originally gained a foothold in Ireland by subjugating the Irish kings.
It's not as clearcut to say it was the British or the English when the history of it goes even further back than the histories of modern day nation states.
However, that is not to say that 17th/18th/19th century Britain didn't exacerbate matters and make the situation worse.
I, personally, feel Ireland should have become fully independent but understand some of the complexities of it.

I showed this to dh who is Scottish and ex military. The most recent troubles or 1968 or so, op Banner, was the use of British troops to support the NI police, in protecting NI Catholics from abuse, assault and discrimination from a loyalist biased devolved government in Stormont, Belfast. Historic boundaries disenfranchised a largely Catholic community, and sectarianism excluded many from promotion. Initially UK troops were welcomed by the Catholic community. Seeking to exploit the situation, PIRA started a terrorist campaign to show the NI Catholics that they represented a better future in a united Ireland. I surprisingly the Protestant loyalists opposed this. The RUC had a strong loyalist base and was not seen as impartial, indeed seen as biased. pPIRA funded by USSR, Libya and anyone who wanted to detabilisre UK did not help. Funding from idealistic US groups did not help. At that time Ulster was economically successful, the Republic was not. As time went by the terrorists on both sides became more interested in protection, drugs and organised crime. US support dwindled largely due to events of 18 years ago today.
But ultimately Elizabeth 1, James 6, Oliver Cromwell, theO,Neil's, lord Carson pick one! Good luck.

It was Dave from over the way; all because his library book was overdue.

perf I’m late 30’s. The only Irish history we did was a bit about the potato famine as an aside to immigration during the industrial revolution. Caused solely by backwards peasants and their farming methods, nothing to do with England.

A bit about catholic emancipation, which made them sound like unreasonable nutters.

Some linked to social unrest after the napoleonic war and Irish immigration. Again no mention of English involvement.

No mention of any other history, nor was it ever covered as a current events type topic.

I only knew anything more because I got interested in the history when I read under the hawthorn tree as a young child and it opened an avenue of history I’d never heard of. And obviously went a lot deeper than a child’s version of the potato famine.

I'm talking about the particular 'troubles' in the North, not Cromwell who starved the entire island.

It's over 1,000 years of squabbling

Viking raids and settlement from the late 8th century AD resulted in extensive cultural interchange, as well as innovation in military and transport technology. Many of Ireland's towns were founded at this time as Viking trading posts and coinage made its first appearance.[1] Viking penetration was limited and concentrated along coasts and rivers, and ceased to be a major threat to Gaelic culture after the Battle of Clontarf in 1014. The Norman invasion in 1169 resulted again in a partial conquest of the island and marked the beginning of more than 800 years of English political and military involvement in Ireland. Initially successful, Norman gains were rolled back over succeeding centuries as a Gaelic resurgence[2] reestablished Gaelic cultural preeminence over most of the country, apart from the walled towns and the area around Dublin known as The Pale.

You can’t talk about the troubles in the north without the historical context.