AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

My late father was probably your stereotypical Ulster unionist, a Christian man whose life revolved around family and church, who believed that he was British through and through and that the IRA were ordinary criminals. And even he detested Paisley and said he had done nothing but stir up hatred and division.

I’ve always thought the British started the troubles. To a large % of the Irish (whole of Ireland) population that is true.

But the opposite is also true for another large %.

It's a bit like Brexit (Sorry) everybody is right, nobody is wrong, it's just a matter of perspective - and the 2 main sides are fairly entrenched in their views, mostly with good reason.

I thought the issues in NI began with James I who planted English/Scottish protestants there to try to breed out the catholics.

It's a bit like Brexit (Sorry) everybody is right, nobody is wrong, it's just a matter of perspective - and the 2 main sides are fairly entrenched in their views, mostly with good reason.

Hang on now. The Catholics in NI didn't ask to be discriminated against. They didn't ask to be treated as second class citizens. They didn't ask to be terrorised by loyalist thugs, riled up by Paisley and his ilk. They initially welcomed the British soldiers who were supposed to be there to protect them. That's until many of those soldiers joined in the abuse. Is it any wonder the IRA developed in such an environment?

-For hundreds of years the English/British government/royalty treated Ireland as somewhere to plunder and muck about with but not help/fund properly.

-A lot of Presbyterians left Scotland and settled in NI, some of whom became powerful and wealthy, and started to discriminate against Catholics. Who understandably didn't like that very much.

@Sakura7

Erm... that's if you start in the early 20th Century... go back further and things change. And It wasn't as if I was blaming anyone, I was being balanced, ffs!

It is that sort of definite blame gaming that means The Troubles will never be over - the never forget so can't forgive thinking - entrenched in both camps!

I mean, wasn't the GFA supposed to draw a line?

Move forward, leave yesterday behind, work fo the good of the people, all the people, etc...

OP what would your alternative to Op Banner have been? How would you have kept peace between the republican and loyalist communities?

I think biggest influence was Cromwell. Because his actions created the N and S ethnic and religious divide.

He genocided 1/3rd the Irish

Sold 1/3rd into slavery in the Americas to pay for his invasion of Ireland

And then forced the remaining 1/3rd onto Gaeltags (reservations) in the West and South of Ireland. To refuse to move was punished by hanging on the spot or being sold into slavery.

He then gave away lands in East & North and had a huge programme of Protestant British settlers colonizing Ireland.

This set the scene for the later conflicts.

I'm going to go for a rough stab in the dark on this one...when the English colonized the island of Ireland they were only setting themselves up for a whole heap of trouble down the road.

How did India work out for the English?
Afghanistan? That's worked out a treat so it has.
Iraq and Libya? Oh they're top of my travel destinations so they are.
Hong Kong? Left a wave of disenfranchised people behind so England did.

I'd say the English started the troubles in the North of Ireland but it wasn't in the 1970's that the troubles started. It was a long time before that!

I mean, wasn't the GFA supposed to draw a line?

Move forward, leave yesterday behind, work fo the good of the people, all the people, etc...

I think the reason why it's all coming back up again at the moment is because the GFA is being threatened with Brexit/the prospect of a hard border being put in place again

They initially welcomed the British soldiers who were supposed to be there to protect them
^This - this is very very often forgotten by both sides.

Ok, a lot of people commenting who haven't watched the documentary.

“wasn't the GFA supposed to draw a line?”

Yes, but the Ireland/ n. Ireland border was never actually agreed on and is still technically in dispute. The Ireland/ N Ireland border was sold as temporary by Westminster who was acting as arbitrator. Westminster told Belfast, the permanent border will be further south and told Dublin the permanent border would be further north to get both sides to agree to the GFA. When they found out about the sleight of hand, both Dublin and Belfast were livid and that is why part of the GFA includes the provision that the “border” will never be a hard border because that was only way they could keep it official that the current border was meant to be temporary pending further negotiations.

Which shows the problem with having one part of British government be arbitrator between another part of itself and another country.

I'm going to cut to the chase and say "people". Human beings are bastards. People who live, breath, eat also cause so much harm and heartache.

The Normans, Elizabeth 1, Cromwell and possibly the Vikings before them. A right shower of shites according to DF aged 100.

I think the reason why it's all coming back up again at the moment is because the GFA is being threatened with Brexit/the prospect of a hard border being put in place again But it was rumbling under before Brexit. IRA, PIRA, etc, never really stopped

Take 2010 and Newry for example... this century...

But it was rumbling under before Brexit. IRA, PIRA, etc, never really stopped

Take 2010 and Newry for example... this century...

Rumbling maybe (these things are going to take along time to fully go) but it was a whole lot more peaceful than prior to the GFA and it has begun to rumble alot louder since Brexit was voted for

Yes, but the Ireland/ n. Ireland border was never actually agreed on and is still technically in dispute. Which was always going to be the 'excuse' for continuing hostilites, should any excuse for bombing and murder be acceptable!

Which shows the problem with having one part of British government be arbitrator between another part of itself and another country. And the alternative? Withdraw and let the Irish (as a whole, whatever their current nationality, religion and leanings are) fight it out between them?

I am sure that was mooted, way back when... not sure how it owuld have panned out.

Basically, The Troubles are probably an unsolveable puzzle... and I am interested to watch the other 6 episodes to see if I learn more, come to another conclusion.

Oliver Cromwell didn't help...

but it was a whole lot more peaceful than prior to the GFA and it has begun to rumble alot louder since Brexit was voted for My point was that Brexit hadn't caused it... just created another more heated moment in time! Thre have been many others, will be many more, sadly.

And how many decades / centuries is enough time? Political history shows many examples of never ending conflict all over the world, along religious lines, morphing into all sorts of other inequities and 'reasons' for sontinued hostilities.

As a race we humans are the biggest danger we face!

They initially welcomed the British soldiers who were supposed to be there to protect them. That's until many of those soldiers joined in the abuse. Is it any wonder the IRA developed in such an environment?

Hang on, the IRA were beating civilians and soldiers to death, they were gunning down civilians and soldiers and they were bombing soldiers and civilians.
Let’s not pretend the IRA were innocent reactionaries, they committed some truly heinous crimes.
And the army (foolishly) sent a lot of young inexperienced soldiers over, imagine being sent somewhere to help keep the peace but you find your colleagues are being kidnapped, beaten, shot etc, and whilst I agree that British Army should always behave above reproach it’s easy to judge from an armchair, living through it is another matter.

It goes back a long, long way to a time in the 1600s when England had a catholic king (James) and William of Orange (protestant) was brought over to replace him in the "glorious revolution". The battle of the Boyne then took place in Ireland and oppression of catholics started. Later English and Scottish protestants were "planted" in Northern Ireland in an attempt to have more loyalty to the British crown. The troubles were a long time in the making.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

The OP asked about The Troubles, which refers to the period 1968-1998. I answered honestly about what started the conflict at that time. You can whitewash all you want but the facts are there.

To say "oh but both sides started it and both sides are right from their perspective" sounds to me like making excuses. Like Trump's “very fine people on both sides” comment after Charlottesville, where one group were peaceful protesters standing up for the human rights of a minority, and the others were violent racist bigots.

I'm not suggesting that IRA violence should be excused, of course not, but there needs to be a recognition of how they came to be, and of the atrocities committed by loyalists too. British people seem to have very little knowledge of the latter.

Let’s not pretend the IRA were innocent reactionaries, they committed some truly heinous crimes.

I never did any such thing. I said it's no wonder, when a community falls under such sustained attack, that some people amongst them will choose to fight back. It's understanding the context. It does not mean I condone the IRA's actions. I don't condone the terrible crimes of the IRA or loyalist paramilitaries.