AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

Having been to Derry/Londonderry for the first time recently, I learnt a lot I didn't know about the history of Northern Ireland. And I'd vote for James I and the Plantation of Ulster.

The Normans when they invaded first England, then Wales.
Can I ask all Irish to remember that not all English are their enemies. It might also be a good time to remember that all land is originally stolen, and no modern nation is totally innocent. Ireland spend a lot of time pillaging the coasts of Britain in the Dark Ages for instance. I'm a little surprised to be defending Britain here - I am concerned about the rise in anti-Celtic hate and the insularity of England really, well, bores me tbh. But when you get to the point of blaming Britain for all of the troubles in the modern world, such as in TrainspottingWelsh's post there really does come a time to stop looking at the past, and deal with the present. It's not all the fault of the average working-class person who happened to be born in England.

We watched the first 40 mins of the documentary this evening, which seems to clearly point the finger towards the UVF.

I’d never heard Ian Paisley speak before. What a vile man. May be biased as my family are Catholic ROI! I quite liked the look of Terence O’Neill.

As I said earlier on I was educated in England and know nothing of all this really.

Fadedred how is that relevant to the original question about The Troubles in Ireland?

The British were to blame.

When your citizens take to the streets demanding Equal Rights, the only correct response is "Yes, here you are."

Anything else will result in Troubles.

I’m not blaming Britain for all the problems in the modern world. Nor do I think anyone is blaming the average person for anything. But few problems can be solved without examining the cause. And there’s no point in discussing history if we do it through a rose tinted view of British behaviour. Not to mention teaching it. And while Britain is still publicly congratulating itself about various episodes of history, it can equally admit the unforgivable fuck ups we either started or condoned.

It does seem rather defensive though to tell Irish people not all English people are their enemies, and it’s not the fault of the working classes. I’ve never got the impression that anyone reasonable did, let alone on this thread.

Well said @ImGoingToBangYourHeadsTogether

Pointless handwringing is irritating and smacks of virtue signalling to me.

A very good book on the subject is Making Sense Of The Troubles by David McKittirck and David McVea.

Anyone can see Ireland isn't part of Britain, just by looking at a map -Jeremy Hardy.

Of course not all English people are to blame but the British empire has done horrendous thing in Britain's name throughout history. Please don't be so condescending about comparing what Britain put Ireland through in recent history to events that happened in the dark ages. My own city was burned to the ground by black and tans just a hundred years ago.They did terrible things in Ireland and other colonies, it's in the past but I despair when I hear ' let's make Britain great again', especially when most British people haven't a clue about the atrocities that were done by various Royal families and later British government.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4jV6heuNac

Eh, no Irish person is blaming the average working class English person for 'all their woes'. Most of us are doing ok thanks. But as Trainspotting said, it's important to understand history and try to look at it objectively.

Ultimately it's the actions of the British government and army that come into question, although it's fair to say that anti-Irish sentiment wasn't exactly uncommon in the UK even before the troubles. Thankfully that has not been the case more recently and I hope we don't end up going backwards.

I really like the takes of mn people- generally speaking (generally) a v sound bunch of posters.
However, I’m repeatedly shocked by the ignorance (not meant in a mean way - the original meaning of the word) of people.
I’m not at all convinced that young people are well educated on a primary or secondary level in the UK

As a Scottish person I had no idea of the history until I had an Irish partner. I think there’s widespread ignorance in the uk.

AND, for me the idea that you could call a BBC documentary ‘unbiased’ - what gives you that idea? I’m not sure of what their agenda will be in this particular documentary, but they are shown to be politically biased so I’d not trust their impartiality on anything else.

It goes back hundreds of years but in more recent times the ira formed because catholics were very discriminated against, couldnt get jobs and werent allowed in certain areas, not condoning the ira but their initial aim was good and necessary

I went to school in the west of Scotland and the difference in how I was taught about Northern Ireland to DH (north England) and my best friend (ROI) is vast. DH was taught about the 'bad Irish bombers' (his summary of his education - not his opinion). My friend's education was a bit more 'both sides did things wrong at various points, but essentially it's Britain's fault' and despite the sectarian issues, or perhaps because of them, where I went to school it simply wasn't mentioned at all at any point.

The education on the British Empire was all very rosy as well. All about how Britain created jobs and industry. Nothing about the atrocities committed. I asked a question once about the treatment of the Mau Mau, which I knew of as my Nana's uncle was in the Colonial police and was sacked for his actions in defending the Kenyan people, and was told to stop "causing trouble".

I’m English and I always thought it was the British that caused the Troubles, particularly Elizabeth 1 going over there and thinking she had some sort of right to take over Ireland.
But this could be because I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. This could also be why I get totally confused by terms like “paras” because to me they’re the ones that used to make the bomb threats to our Catholic but in England paras usually just means IRA and not Protestant.

Ultimately it's the actions of the British government and army that come into question this is in incredibly naive and foolish if it’s not followed by the words “and the actions of the terrorists of course”

No one likes to address why the government were asked to deploy the army-

People were killing each other in brutal ways, the government were asked for help - What should they have done ?

I asked that earlier but no one has answered yet.

this is in incredibly naive and foolish if it’s not followed by the words “and the actions of the terrorists of course”

Maybe take my comment in context? I was clearly responding to the person who made out that the Irish have some kind of issue with the "average working class English person". I have already said multiple times on this thread that the crimes committed by all terrorists are appaling.

Mind you, it brings up another point. With some (obviously not all) English people, it is impossible to have a rational conversation about Irish history without them a) getting defensive and b) insinuating that you're a terrorist sympathiser. It is fucking exhausting.

I'm from there myself & it's a complicated history.

I'm simplify it a lot here but....

The 6 counties of the north were taken by force by England, the English found the Irish natives difficult to control. So this lead to the plantation of Ulster, naming taking thousands of families - mostly from Scotland and moving them over to Northern Ireland. Removing Irish Catholics from their homes/business were they were given to the planters. It was organised colonization.

The planters are the Protestants who were told to stay loyal to the Crown - this has been engraved throughout generations. The Catholics are the displaced Irish.

Irish Catholics were still the majority in a lot of counties at the time, so the British decided to gerrymander the voting system. Instead of one man one vote, you only got a vote if you owned property of businesses. Thus the minority protestants had control over local government, deciding on housing/jobs, most unwilling employ catholics. This was one of the reason for the march on Bloody Sunday.

The IRA were initially born as a result of the treatment of Irish Catholics...

The biggest misconception is that the troubles is about religion. It never was.

The People killing each other in brutal ways was done post Civil Rights Protests and mostly post horrendous human rights violations carried out on behalf of the British State.

Sakura7

I posted earlier about how defensive we all are on this topic.

It is fucking exhausting trying to have a discussion about the Troubles when no one will ever talk about what the alternative to Op Banner should have been.

No one seems to want to discuss when the government were asked for help what could they have done differently?

It was them ens

Only NI people will get that joke ^^^

I'm English and I'm 26. We spent months and months studying Ireland at school and the English weren't painted in a nice light. I'm surprised Irish history isn't widely covered for many school kids.

No one seems to want to discuss when the government were asked for help what could they have done differently?

How about respecting the nationalist population? Ending the discrimination? Accepting that they have a right to be there and giving them proper representation? Cracking down on the loyalist thugs who were terrorising them? Instead they colluded with them.

Why won't the British government release its files on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? What have they got to hide?

The modern troubles have many many many layers. Far more than people, even supposedly very informed people know. I think everyone would be surprised and who actually is to blame. It would cause another war so people will never find out.