AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

I blame Henry VIII and his plantation laws 😡

On an aside I would whole heartedly recommend a trip to both Derry and Belfast, great places

@Bugsymalonemumof2 I’m also English and 26 and we did nothing on it!

The way history is taught in England is so bloody patchy. Egyptians, Tudors, we did loads on the build ups to WW1 and WW2 but little on the actual wars- I couldn’t tell you about any WW2 battles tbh. We randomly did a bit about Indian independence but nothing on Ireland or colonialism more broadly. And I don’t think jumping around so much gives you a very good idea of the relative dates of things.

I always find it terribly British to refer to what happened in Ireland as Troubles... it minimises what actually went on.

Another thing worth mentioning is the hold over their own communities that paramilitaries have, even to this day. Even in the midst of the worst violence it was quite easy for the middle classes here to say 'well, I would never get involved with paramilitaries, only people looking for trouble would do that'. It's an awful lot harder if you live in a volatile area and neighbour 'suggests' that eg you hide something from the police for him, and you know there will be consequences if you don't. Even in 2019 where I live (which is a perfectly nice country village, not an inner city troublespot) there are people who will come to your door in the summer and put a flag in your garden. You'll be told they're putting a flag in your garden, not asked. And it will be made clear that if you want your windows and car to remain undamaged, and for your house to not have an accidental fire, that that flag will stay in your garden. Whether you are the sort of person who actually wants to fly a flag or not.

I can only imagine what it might have been like to live in a flash point area in the 70s. Keeping out of it all wasn't really an option that was available.

YANBU, OP. This certainly wasn't covered in History when I was at school (90s). My parents used to come out with some horrific anti-Irish bigotry (nuke them all, etc) so I got a very slanted view from them. Luckily I did some more reading myself when I was old enough and worked out that it was a bit more complicated.

Looking back, I'm shocked by how prevalent anti-Irish hatred was when I was growing up, in my part of England at least. I remember, when I was in primary school, some of the kids wanting to put "thick Irish" jokes in the school magazine because they heard them all the time at home. The worst part was that some of the parents were up in arms when the teacher took those bits out. Apparently calling Irish people thick and making jibes about them only eating potatoes was an important part of our glorious English culture. No, really.

Brits started it historically and then in the 20C- specifically, by only giving independence to 26 counties in Ireland in the early 1920s and then via the corrupt boundary commission who decided on the border (and therefore what parts of Ireland comprised NI). They incorporated counties that had a numerically strong Catholic population who most likely wanted to remain Irish so as to ensure the 'statelet' had some chance of surviving. There were 'pogroms' in the wake of that in the 1920s when Catholic families were burnt/run out of their homes by Protestant neighbours who believed NI should be a Protestant state for a Protestant people.

The Protestant majority ran local government, deciding on housing allocation, healthcare, electoral boundaries etc and were biased against the Catholics in all those areas (and more) for decades, leading to a civil rights movement in the 1960s when Catholics campaigned for equal rights. It spilled into some violence at which stage the British Army were sent in as 'peacekeepers'. They clearly favoured the Protestant establishment and allowed Protestant militias to remain legal, leading to violence against Catholics, the revival of the IRA etc etc

I was taught in school, mid 90s, through Literature classes me poems of Yeats and others by looking with critical thinking in history how diabolically the ruling English class treated the people of Ireland. We also learnt how spin works, and how easily it is to manipulate the population against each other. One of the most useful bits of education we ever had. Thank you Mrs M, wherever you are.

ImGoingToBangYourHeadsTogether don't be silly, Irish people don't hate English people or blame them. We just hate how ignorant you are about British history and how it involved so many parts of the world (negatively).

A shocking aspect of this Brexit debacle is not just ignorance about Ireland but that so many British commentators talk about Brexit involving humiliation/a lack of honour/becoming a pariah or laughing stock. Those living in ex-colonies (incl Ireland) or who know their history are deeply puzzled because the way Britain acted in so many places around the globe was deeply dishonorable, and tbh the history of the British Empire is pretty shameful. How the British see themselves as kindly and slightly bumbling vs how the rest of the world sees the British is very very weird. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

I should add, I went to school in England.

I'm English. The English started it. Historically England has treated the Irish appallingly. I hate the thought of the troubles kicking off again. There were lots of innocent victims on both sides but no winners. Growing up I saw photos of murdered children, film of protestant adults throwing stones and abuse at little catholic school girls, no go areas and army on the streets. Both sides were as bad as each other.

The English definitely started it though.

Pre warning - I know very little about this subject and this is just my off the top of my head opinions. I've read this thread with interest in hope of learning more as well as general interest in seeing peoples perspectives.

As a PP said it just wasn't taught in school in England and was generally glossed over. I remember as a young child the dodgy voice dubbing on the news when some Irish politicians spoke though. I recall asking my parents why, they just said "he's a bad man, don't worry". No one ever really explained, and trust me everything was explained to me at length as a child if I asked. I'm sure if it was some great injustice against the English it would be explained, taught, and generally shouted from the roof tops.

My gut instinct tell me it was the English who started the troubles, or at least took action that provoked an escalation of things. For the reasons above and also for the fact the English have a bit of a track record for claiming countries as their own that they have absolutely no right to.

It's who is carrying 'the troubles' on that bothers me more, and the morons from both sides that keep them going and even drag them across to Scotland to perpetuate them!
Most culpable currently is Arlene Foster who cannot pull a Government together in NI to work for the benefit of all, yet finds time to opt to lead Orange marches in Scotland! (Meanwhile Boris Johnson thinks that makes her and her DUP fit and proper people to prop up his Tory 'government'.

Answering OP - Martin Luther? Without the Protestant Reformation Henry VII would never have broken from the Catholic Church quite like he did (he suddenly had options!) and England would have remained Catholic as he wouldn't have been able to have more legitimate children beyond Bloody Mary. Protestant Edward VI would never have been. This would have made it far less likely for William of Orange to have been invited to reign after the "Glorious Revolution" therefore there would have been no Battle of the Boyne. Everyone would've been Catholic for good or ill (they're not an exactly blameless crowd historically either 🙄).

I'm going to recommend this here Peter Taylor: My Journey Through the Troubles

Peter Taylor is a reporter who began reporting from NI in the 1960s, this is his account of what he saw and reported on.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007pb4

As for who started 'the troubles'? Obviously the roots were and are deep in Irish / English / Scottish history but for the 1960s, how about Martin Luther King jr and Rosa Parks?

Giving people the idea that they are equal and have the right to the same jobs and the same pay and access to social housing.

I will watch that documentary with interest. I was brought up in Scotland and remember the 70s news being full of what was going on during the "Troubles", and having been given 2 different viewpoints as I was brought up in a mixed religious household.
I have read a bit and watched various documentaries on it since then. From what I understand, British troops were sent to NI to protect Catholics in 1969. The IRA weren't a huge thing then ( although they were around in various guises for years). They were referred to as I Ran Away. Then Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday happened , which was allegedly the hugest recruitment the IRA had. I in no way condone the violence from either side and must have been dreadful for anyone living there.
I do remember my dad telling me that Irish Catholics could not get work as a joiner, but could as a labourer.
My granny lived in the north and I remember her telling me about her getting stopped by the Black and Tans, many of whom she went to school with. Many Catholic kids in small villages went to Protestant schools as it might be a 6 or 10 mile walk to the nearest Catholic school.
Interesting programme on TV the other night about squaddies in NI. One was quite bitter about being sent. Said they achieved very little and condemned the British govt for the history of Ireland, and said they were told that Nationalists were the enemy, all of them, not just the IRA.
I will certainly watch this with interest as the "other" side of my family were very much pro the loyalist cause ( if not their methods)

Many Catholic kids in small villages went to Protestant schools as it might be a 6 or 10 mile walk to the nearest Catholic school.

There are very few 'Protestant' schools, they are mostly private fee paying schools run by the Free Presbyterian Church, with only a handful of pupils. The rest are state schools which are open to all. The majority of pupils at the schools I went to were Protestant but there were Catholics there too and there was no set religion beyond having a prayer and a song in assembly.

The black and tans pre-date the state of N Ireland and were disbanded around the time of partition.

It depends how far back you want to go!

Yes to the Normans (and Irish King of Leinster Dermot McMurrough) for the subjugation of Irish kings.

Yes again to James I/ Elizabeth/ Cromwell for the plantations.

In more modern times the Home Rule Crisis is often forgotten. This was a movement by Irish nationalist politicians in the House of Commons to give Ireland limited self government (similar to devolution). It was supported by the Liberal leadership under Gladstone and later Asquith. The stories were opposed for a number of reasons including family links and business interests. This grew exponentially during the Third Home Rule Crisis from 1911 onwards when the Tory leader Bonar Law made it clear that the Torres would support Ulster Unionist opposition to Home Rule no matter how far they took it. (Partly as a unifying issue for the divided Conservative party- sound familiar ) This galvanised Unionist opposition under Carson and Craig and soon the UVF was founded, followed by their nationalist counterparts the Irish Volunteers, making the prospect of Civil War in Ireland a possibility. Along with the First World War And a weak nationalist leader in John Redmond this led to partition being enshrined before the Irish War of Independence had truly been acknowledged as a War (rather than the work of criminal murder gangs as Lloyd George put it)

The new state of Northern Ireland was designed to have a Unionist majority and the British government were happy to let them get on with running the country. However it was discriminatory from the start. This came to a head in the 1960s when the minority Catholic population, motivated by peaceful civil rights movements in the US and now having had the benefit of free education began to protest.

As in the Home Rule crisis these protests were met with opposition from the Unionist community who organised counter marches to clash with civil rights protests which often led to attacks on Catholic area afterwards, sometimes with the participation of off duty RUC men. Wound up by Unionist leaders such as Ian Paisley and depicted as a Catholic rights organisation many Unionists were strongly opposed the NICRA, a non sectarian organisation. (Many unionists such as Gusty Spence- UVF leader- acknowledged later that they were misled by their leaders and should have been involved in NICRA not in opposition to it.

The growing sectarian conflict (which was really about nationalism, not religion) was of concern and embarrassment to Britain who sent in the army to protect Catholic areas from attack and as PPs have mentioned were welcomed. That all changed when they were put under the control of the Unionist government who used them in the same way as the RUC. A clear turning point was the Falls Curfew in 1970 followed of course by Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday and Internment. All these issues led to the growth of the IRA who had little to no support prior to 1969, who split into the provisionals and stickies and the provisionals in particular became more active. The actions of the British Army made easy propaganda for the PIRA to show that they were the real protectors of Catholic communities. All of these also led to poverty both of expectation and actual poverty (due to high unemployment) and the growth of the paramilitaries (on both sides) particularly in working class communities in Belfast and Derry b

So in summary- British leadership, a divided Tory party supporting any actions by Ulster Unionists, weak nationalist political leadership, manipulation and propaganda by Unionist leadership coupled with British indifference and the actions of paramilitaries on both sides along with the British Army with a side dish of biased media reporting and poverty. There are some striking parallels to Brexit which is concerning but history ever repeats itself

*The British were to blame.

When your citizens take to the streets demanding Equal Rights, the only correct response is "Yes, here you are."

Anything else will result in Troubles.*

This.

Its on the DM website now, and the comments underneath are really interesting. I expected a lot of ranting 'Project Fear' etc from the Gammonistas, but its unusually well balanced for the Daily Mail, people are appalled. I feel the tide is turning somewhat. I just hope its not to late.

Erm I would say that the English colonising NI probably started that off originally.

This colonialist history of ours has started off "troubles" in many places the world over.

@FadedRed - this post of yours really riled me : "I think one thing that should be remembered is that the poor of England, Wales and Scotland also suffered for centuries."

Yes they probably did, but I never heard of the Great Welsh Famine, or the English one or even the Scottish one, have you??
I also haven't heard of the Welsh/Scottish/English Troubles (by any other words would have been called a Civil War but there you go)...

So while you're wearing your rose tinted spectacles there, you might take this opportunity to review Anglo Irish relations for the past oh, I don't know, 600-800 years or so....There is some fairly juicy stuff going on...

I'm interested that the original poster used the term the "North of Ireland".This is not a term that I or any of my family would ever use.We live in Northern Ireland. There are significant implications in the terminology we use and I know instantly what someone's political leanings will be when they use the term "North of Ireland".
Living amongst the survivors of the IRA and the real IRA I'd question more what we do to look to the future and to deal with those who are still suffering.