AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

Well of course the police were in the right. Your younger DS backed away and swore repeatedly at them.

What was he expecting to happen?

Haven't you taught them how to behave? At their age, in a high-crime area, they should just have complied and been reasonable and cooperative.

And when they were all back at your house, why did DS2 keep interrupting the police over minutiae?
He needs to learn some manners.

YABU.

I’d be writing an official complaint.

They're young men OP....if they wander the streets at night, then they will attract attention from the police.

You keep referring to the officer as "the man" as though he was some random geezer. He was doing his job and your younger DS was obstructive.

The lads had a slight run in with the police...no biggie. It will teach them to be respectful of police officers in future.

I'd be writing an official complaint

About what?

Were your sons in their pyjamas?

Did he really say "charge"? The police officer?

That's very very odd... if you really feel that your son was doing nothing to merit the policeman's interest then I'd encourage him to make a formal complaint about his treatment. Did you get the police officers full name?
I'd be asking your sons a lot of questions about how they initially responded though. Because it does seem very odd that the policeman acted aggressively BEFORE the boys started swearing etc...
You might have a word with them to check that they responded politely to initial enquiries about what they were up to so late...
I was a bit of a delinquent in my late teens and used to wander the streets a lot at night... we lived in a city. I was stopped by the police once or twice but never were they aggressive towards me or tried to search me or restrain me or even escort me home! They basically just asked if I were okay and where I lived... I just responded politely each time that I'd been at a party and said I was on my way home now... (gave a fake address etc) in my experience they do not react like your sons have described unless they witness unruly or aggressive behaviour.... so I really would make sure your Don's are telling the truth... if you think they are then do make a formal complaint about it.

When a police officer identifies themselves then the lads should cooperate. The new stop and search legislation is there to protect communities. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Two teens in a high crime area, late at night can expect to be targeted. I would be worried about their welfare wondering about late at night. Perhaps ds1 can find another way to wind down at the end of a day?

Swearing at police officers isn't very sensible.
Hopefully your dc have learned this now and will be calmer when interacting with the police in future.

Your son was not doing as he was asked, was backing away swearing and arguing at the Police Officer. That's why it escalated. No doubt they were in the wrong place at the wrong time but matched the description of those they were searching for. Until they have confirmed their ID to let them on their way, your kids should of behaved. No excuse for swearing at a Police Officer doing his job.

@HennyPennyHorror
"You keep referring to the officer as "the man" as though he was some random geezer."

I should have put in the OP that they were plainclothed police officers, so to be honest, although they showed me their badges and they were defo legit, they did look at bit like randoms (hoodies and trainers type wear).

I also dont understand why they should expect attention from the police just from walking about the streets? There's no curfew in Scotland!! DS2 had my permission to leave the house and was with a legal adult.

Cailleachan

You're right - there's no curfew in Scotland.

But your boys were not being cooperative. If they had calmly given their names and been polite this would not have escalated.

They should not have sworn at police officers. Just asking for trouble.

AutumnCrow

There's no need for remarks like that.

Are you really that naive @Cailleachian ?

There are two sides to every story. Yes there are some officers who are heavy handed/aggressive for no reason (bad eggs like you can get in every and all professions) however it does sound as though your sons didn’t respond in the best possible way. It is an offence to obstruct a search and officers can use reasonable force to detain a person in order to conduct said search. Also swearing at officers is a sure fire way to escalate the situation.

However, the officers do need to explain their grounds for the search to the person being searched- did they do this? Was it made clear to your sons the reasons why they were being searched? There also should be a record made of the search which should be provided to your son.

Nearly all police forces in England and Wales now wear body worn cameras which should record things like stop search. If you are unhappy with the situation, you can make a complaint to the force and the footage would be reviewed as a matter of course to see if this supports your son’s version of events or the officer.

I’m sorry but if they police ask to search you just co operate, why did your son behave like this? He’s lucky he wasn’t charged. Did you get their names etc?

Very few Scottish forces, if any, have body worn cameras.

If plain clothes officers are out and about at night then it will be because they are running an operation to target a specific kind of offending, most likely of an acquisitive nature. Therefore anyone out and about that time will attract their attention, and questions are to be expected.

Police just can't win really can they? If they don't carry out pro-active policing of this nature it's their fault when people get burgled, why aren't they out and about, etc. etc. and yet when they do, the parents of ill-mannered and disrespectful teenagers are looking for ways to undermine them going about their lawful business.

Why do we bother..

I've seen those plain clothes police officers, they do that to blend in.

Your sons need to understand that it's always better to comply with the police. It's not America...they're not carrying guns...all you need to do is be polite and do as you're told and they'll let you go if you're not up to anything.

Are your sons black/mixed race/Asian?

You ought really to think about how you can teach your sons to respond to people in authority who are going about their duties.

Surely you don't think it's okay for your DS to back away from and swear at a police officer?

Why are you defending him?

I’d be suspicious that my 17 and 18 year old were out “taking the night air”. Possibly getting out of the house for a smoke and attracted police attention.

The police officers being plain clothed changes things a bit for me... the police who approached me were all dressed in police uniform... so I knew how to react.. I think theres some justification for your sons reacting defensively if they did not immediately know whether this was a legit police officer or not... I imagine idve been quite scared if some random man had walked up to me saying he was a policeman and tried to search me... especially very late at night... so I might have reacted less politely. Police officers should be trained to de escalate situations not scare the shit out of boys... so on second thoughts I do think your son should file a formal complaint about it.

What did your DS2 expect the officers to do while he backed away and swore at them? That behaviour is pretty stupid and unlikely to instill confidence in them believing him, don't you think?

If those same two officers stopped two different young men, preventing, say, your house being burgled that night, I imagine you would feel differently about them then.

Exactly what lookingforward2020 said - BAME would go a long way in explaining why they were stopped in the first place...