AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

"if they police ask to search you just co operate"

and if you don't, you can be arrested?

If that's the case, it is not an "ask"

maybe "demand" or "order" but not "ask"

OP can say whatever she wants but the facts are the officers would of been wearing body video cameras.
Everything would of been recorded.
This is a requirement by law.

The facts are that OP is in Scotland, as has been states several times in this thread. Fewer than 500 police officers in Scotland currently wear body cams, as stated in this article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4396629/police-scotland-body-cams-fast-track-elish-angiolini/amp

Okay well then if her son makes a formal complaint then they can look at that footage and see if the officer acted appropriately or not. Job done then.

KrissKrossKiss,
What do you think should be done ?
Nobody was arrested.

Have you got a YOI nearby or a hospital? the 'unit' comment was weird

YABU. Your son should have cooperated.

There won’t be body worn footage.

And “unit” probably refers to a local children’s unit. We routinely call them that.

@Cailleachian

I wouldn't make an enemy of the police because it will backfire on you. My son passed his test at 17 and I got him a car and insured it in my name. He was stopped by the police twice, the first time they asked him who the car belonged to and he told them his mother - so they said does she know you are out driving it? The second time it was Kate and Williams wedding and he was dropping some friends home. He noticed a police car following him which then pulled him over and said he had been swerving all over the road (completely untrue) they then sat him their car and asked him if he had been drinking which he hadn't but they still made him take a breath test. The police do target young men because they think they are more likely to be up to no good - sad fact I'm afraid.

My DS was stopped around 9:30 pm when out running. Tbf, he wasn’t hugely fit at the time and whilst wearing shorts and T-shirt they weren’t fancy branded gear. He is white, British. The police stopped him as they had a report in the area of a suspected break in, he explained what he was doing, answered their questions and went on his way.

I think your sobs reacted badly, but on the other hand young men at that age can be a bit angsty and defensive, so I would put it down to age.

Perhaps be the adult and teach them how to behave in such situations. It isn’t usual for teens to be wandering the street at midnight without a reason.

*Well of course the police were in the right. Your younger DS backed away and swore repeatedly at them.

What was he expecting to happen?*

This. Come on OP, seriously?

Actually, I am a bit shocked by the officers’ behaviour. As they were in plain clothes (so presumably driving an unmarked car), I can see why your sons initially ignored the officers’ call from the car. I truly understand police fears about people carrying knives etc but the male officer does seem from your posts to have escalated your younger son’s reaction by his approach.

I even looked up the Police Scotland info on stop and search because I was so surprised. This is it:

www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/stop-and-search/

There’s a lot there about explaining beforehand why they are stopping people and respecting the public. Having said that, your sons probably need to be more aware that this might happen to them again.

I am astonished that people so easily assume that two police officers, experienced enough to work plain clothed would have behaved inappropriately, rather than a 17-year old who even admitted to swearing and being stroppy. It is far more likely that the boy inherited a rather obnoxious and entitled attitude, displayed by the OP. They identified themselves as police officers and the 17-year old refused to cooperate, did not show his hands and behaved very furtively.

This!
Yabu, op, and your ds2 did himself no favours at all.

If it is a high crime area they could be running a time where they can stop and search anyone without any grounds. (section 61). It will be published on police Scotland or the police authority's website if so.

For someone upthread who talked about police forces in Scotland - there is only one now.

Where forces use handheld devices they normally issue a search reference number to the young person afterwards so thry can follow up or make a complaint. In practice I understand this is commonly not done well and young people who know their rights know to ask

Op - my next steps would be to have a proper conversation with your children about what they would do differently in this situation if it were to happen again. There are plenty of guidelines outthere. Our force area pays for training in schools /colleges so people know what to expect andwhat their rights are. Have a google

I might use the man's collar number to get a copy of the search.

Cross Post - someone has found the police Scotland info

I’m not going to comment about your son’s behaviour towards the police and why two young men randomly walking the streets so very late at night looks suspicious
Rather

I think you need to be concerned why someone this young suffers that kind of insomnia. This needs to be addressed before it becomes the norm. Chronic Lack of sleep can not only impact him physically but also emotionally including irrational behaviour, irritability and anxiety (his reaction to the police and “squabbling” with his brother whilst relaying what happened).

Have a look into sleep hygiene (it’s not about showering before bed) and perhaps a meditation app for your son too. There could be serious health issues in the future if his insomnia doesn’t get addressed.

Take this episode as a warning that it needs to be addressed.

Your son was in the wrong.

OP, Police Scotland have clear guidelines about searching under 18s which they appear, in this case, not to have followed. Their guidance is on their website but is clear that the onus is on the officers involved to explain prior to any search being conducted what will happen and why. I can entirely understand your younger son’s apprehension and it’s not ok for that to be disregarded by the police simply on the basis that they do a dangerous job.

It’s a shame that this first contact with the police was such a negative one and perhaps it would help if you and him were able to discuss it with a local officer on an informal basis so he has a more positive association and is shown their side to policing. I don’t think a complaint is necessarily out of order but your son would probably benefit more from understanding the risks the police face and how this can result in sometimes misreading a situation or matters escalating.

He needs to learn that his behaviour and attitude can also escalate or defuse a situation and to use this knowledge to benefit him and keep him safe in other situations.

That would freak me out if 2 plain clothes officers suddenly approached and demanded to search me, my fear would be that they were 2 randoms flashing fake ID and were going to mug me.

I thought there was a code of conduct which the police in Scotland had to follow which outlines the approach?
I don't know how I would react if approached by the police- it iSn't a situation that you expect/experience much so none of us know - I'd like to think I'd just quietly let them do their job- even if they were breaching the law /code etc but I can imagine the nerves getting the better of me- and I'm not 17 years old

YABU. Two teens walking about late at night in a high crime area then refusing to cooperate with Police. What did you expect? A pat on the head and a cup of cocoa while your DS2 repeatedly swore at them?

I would consider them lucky they were not stabbed if in a high crime area.

This does not sound sensible at any level

He's lucky he wasn't cuffed, of course the male officer reacted the way he did. His partner was vulnerable, your DS could have had a weapon in his hidden hand.

op you are bound to be up in arms with your ds treatment by the police but let him be warned by this. this is his life. he needs to rethink his attitude, reactions as well as his behaviour. and dont go walking around at night. he should be glad it was the police he ran into no a mugger

How are they supposed to know your DS2 is 17 and what difference do you expect that to make? Do you think under 17s are not committing crimes? Who do you think are attacking each other with knives and running drugs out to the counties? If you live in an urban area where they assumed that a car stopping to speak to them is a drug dealer then you are in an area of crime and your sons know fully well what’s going on. So, of course plain clothes officers are going to be dressed in casual clothes ... they want to blend in not stand out. They should have identified themselves as police and recorded the grounds for the search. However if you’re told to stand still and show your hands then you don’t fuck about being mouthy and arguing the toss. You get your hands out your pocket and answer the questions. Whether the officer could have handled it better I don’t know.... but your son knew he had nothing on him but the officer couldn’t know that. And if they actually came to the house and explained it to you ( which you seem to be saying) is considerably more than you might have got ordinarily.