AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

@Krisskrosskiss "I mean physically restraining someone who is moving away from you when you believe them to be a young kid is deeply unethical... of understand if your son was being aggressive towards him but backing away would suggest fear not aggression. This police officer needs retraining."

I'm sorry but you are very naive. Police deal with potentially dangerous situations day in day out. From bitter experience most officers will suspect that someone moving away means they are either hiding something they shouldn't have, or are mentally preparing to do something erratic like run or lash out. The officer has to have their wits about them and take control.

Think yabu.
Your son should have taken his hands out of his pockets and not sworn at the officers.

It was called giardiasis.. Not sure on the spelling.. That can be got from lakes too I believe

Oops wrong thread sorry

It all turns on whether the stop-and-search power was exercised lawfully. The police have to have reasonable suspicion that they will find prohibited articles. The reasonable suspicion has to be triggered by some sort of unusual behaviour, or perhaps a reliable tip off from someone else. Just being a young man out late is not enough.

If the search was lawful the police are allowed to use reasonable force to conduct it. Resisting would be the offence of either obstructing or assaulting an officer in the course of her duty.

If the search was unlawful then your son was as much entitled to resist, swear and fight back as if any stranger had physically accosted him.

I am astonished that people so easily assume that two police officers, experienced enough to work plain clothed would have behaved inappropriately, rather than a 17-year old who even admitted to swearing and being stroppy. It is far more likely that the boy inherited a rather obnoxious and entitled attitude, displayed by the OP. They identified themselves as police officers and the 17-year old refused to cooperate, did not show his hands and behaved very furtively.

Your sons are both old enough to know how to behave when interacting with the police.
The police have to assume someone may have a weapon, so if your ds2 didn’t show his hands immediately, when asked, yes he will be restrained, for everyone’s safety.

Why did your son keep interrupting? He sound unhelpful & confrontational.

It sounds like your sons walked into an active investigation and your ds2 behaved badly.
You need to explain to your ds2 that the police have the right to stop& search, and he needs to co-operate because resisting will get him into trouble.

I've been searched and I was not restrained I was asked to put my hands on my head and then out to the sides.
I agree none of us were there so we cant know if there isnt more to it and the boys arent telling the whole truth... but if they are then I do think that police officer was acting over the top and made the situation worse. I've been very lucky to never encounter police acting that aggressively and let me tell you I've been in situations where they may have had call to. I've always had a positive view of the police because of the way I've seen them deal with things but the situation op describes sounds very frightening.. I think idve reacted defensively in that situation.
Of course the boys may have been acting more aggressively than they are letting on or have been refusing to cooperate more than they are letting on....
But if it's as stated I'd complain..

@Cakedoesntjudge You are right, the officer must have grounds to stop search but I don't think we can judge that on the OPs information. This is why a copy of the search is necessary.

It may be that one or both of the boys matched a description that was passed to officers regarding something and additional factors.

I'd happily be stop searched if the officers had grounds to do so. I'd comply, they would probably thank me for my time and I'd get on with my day.

There's no curfew in Scotland!! DS2 had my permission to leave the house and was with a legal adult.

He doesn’t need your permission to leave the house. In Scotland, he could be married and living with his wife without your permission at that age.

Not sure why people on this thread are critical of both boys - sounds like the elder one did what he was told.

Given that they were plain clothed and in an unmarked car, did the female officer identify herself as a police officer immediately and show ID? You haven’t said so.

That said, I don’t think your younger son is sufficiently mature to be out wandering the streets at night, whether he’s “allowed” to be or not. In Scotland, he got treated slightly roughly for not complying with a police officer. In the US, he’d possibly have been shot dead.

The most sensible thing to do in such circumstances is comply, no matter how unfair you think the request. You can complain later. In that kind of situation, there’s only going to be one winner and it’s not going to be your son. If he can’t see that, he definitely shouldn’t be out roaming the streets in the middle of the night attracting attention to himself.

kriss So during that search your hands were under control. We don’t use that method in Scotland so we take hold of them during it and I make no apologies for that. I could handcuff every person if I wanted during a search and that is also perfectly acceptable. Rarely do that though.

I live in London and have done for 10 years and let me just say the police don’t randomly stop and search for the sake of it because a person looks a bit strange/weird.
They have to write reports , they have to justify why a person/persons came to their attention in the first place and 2 officers have to agree to a stop and search .

17 & 18 year old boys walking about late at night in an area that currently has a high burglary rate? To be honest, where I live, they'd be lucky not to have their photo taken and put on the local Facebook crime page as 'suspicious' characters. Yes it's sad that it is like that in this day and age but it's the world we live in.

I'm not quite sure what you expected to happen by your DS2 backing away and then swearing at police officers. He should have done what DS1 did and just got on with it, they would have been on their way in 2 minutes.

I'd be suggesting they use it as a learning experience and DS1 should find a different way of winding down late at night, as walking around late at night in a high crime area is not advisable for his own and his brother's protection.

On the hands/pockets issue, I'm not exactly sure, (thats the kind of minutiae that DS2 and the policeman were squabbling over)

This isn't what I'd call minutiae, if he was concealing his hands then the officer had every right to use restraint. YABU your son should have complied

You have no idea how much abuse and violence our Police face every day. Perhaps next time your son's will learn to cooperate and remain respectful in assisting the Police with their enquires.

@Krisskrosskiss backing away or resisting?

But surely you must admit that holding a person, particularly a teenager or child of any age, physically is going to be quite frightening for them? Not everyone you search will be a hardened criminal who is used to it. And if you couple it with shouting at them, how can you expect kids to react meekly? Especially ones who have never been restrained before? I'm sure you dont go in all guns blazing without cause like this guy may have done... surely you take into account you might cause a bad reaction if you do? Idve been terrified to be physically restrained. Do you think this man acted appropriately if the boys are telling the truth?

hmm..i would guess..plain clothed random stop and search presumeably for first(hopefully only) time ever,would be pretty intense.for both kids. Presumeably if require plain clothes foot soldiering in the area-it isn't cos they want to play cagney and lacey.I have walked passed my son,in daylight,in playground.so..even if they pretty much are lookin for specifics...at night,it could be a safeguard and/or elimination.
I don't think id give my lad a row for questioning or verbally objecting.plain clothes waving a badge.means nothing.is there a standard protocol?

@Krisskrosskiss I am amazed how you are arguing with a serving Police Officer who does this job day in day out. Until he was searched the Police have no idea if he is a potential threat, the lad was resisting and swearing. I would say that gives the officers every right to protect themselves from any threat and handle the situation accordingly.

@Sunflowers211 the op says her son was restrained because he was backing away... of course he might not be telling the truth but thats what she has said

@Krisskrosskiss absolutely agree that for a person not used to interacting with police it would be frightening.. but then also doesn't excuse back chat and not following instructions. Most people accept that the police are trying to do a difficult job already and if they have nothing to hide will cooperate whether they are scared or not.

And also, this "kid" is a teenager.. many teenagers that police have contact with are involved in drugs/violent/have mental health problems etc. Again, the police have to react to the situation and gain control in the person they are speaking to is not cooperating as requested.

Yes, the police woman identified herself immediately, the policeman did when he got to the other side of the road where they were all standing.

There is genuinely no substantial dispute between what the police say happened and what DSs say happened, all the disagreement is in the detail (did PC show his card properly, how quickly did DS2 take his hands out of his pockets, how much was DS2 backing away etc etc).

DS2 was interrupting because he was quite hyper, I agree it was quite unhelpful. I think DS2 would have benefited from taking a few minutes to go into another room and calm down but they insisted that he came into the room with us.

I'm not arguing with her at all... The Police arent one giant entity they are all individuals and some are better at their jobs than others, some forces are better than others etc etc... sometimes some of them DO react badly and use excessive force... acknowledging that doesnt mean you 'disrespect the police' or mistrust them or whatever... like I've said I've had great experiences with the police, in fact without them I'd not be here today. That doesnt mean I think every single one of them is always right and anyone complaining about aggression from them is automatically lying,

There is genuinely no substantial dispute between what the police say happened and what DSs say happened, all the disagreement is in the detail (did PC show his card properly, how quickly did DS2 take his hands out of his pockets, how much was DS2 backing away etc etc).

OP, is your boy usually obstructive and er, cheeky, or does this seem completely out of character?

I hope the three of you are rethinking the wisdom of these 3am walkabouts, at any rate.

Krisskrosskiss,
OP can say whatever she wants but the facts are the officers would of been wearing body video cameras.
Everything would of been recorded.
This is a requirement by law.