AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

I’m with your sons on this.
I think.
They were out late at night and thought somebody wanted to buy or sell drugs from the car. They ignored it and the woman got out. Then the man got out and shouted from across the road.
At this point I’m vague.
They were not in uniform and did not announce themselves as such straight away. Your eldest allowed himself to be searched but the other did not allow a strange man to touch him. So this was then done by force.

I think the boys walked into something active - a sting or stake out - and the officer over reacted to clear the area and never intended to charge them just to get them to move but it escalated when your younger son was scared.

@BlackeyedGruesome they don't need to be given paperwork as most police now record the stop search on their electronic device, they no longer carry round the old paper sheets. The person stopped can request details from the police station at a later time.

I agree with previous posters, the attitude of your boys sounds like it caused the escalation in the behaviour of the officers. Officers have to be in control of a situation not stand there negotiating with people.. the officers were clearly patrolling in plain clothes for a reason, likely there's been a spate of burglary or violence in the area.

The officers don't know who your boys are until they have obtained their details.. they could (likely lots of teenagers) be carrying a knife, they could be running drugs, they may have previous history of violence, for all of the above reasons as soon as your son starts not doing as requested he's going to be restrained so that the officers can establish what the situation is. You should be thanking the officers for bringing them home to you.

Did the police officer try just asking your son to take his hands out of his pockets or did he just yell at him? You see it does sound like this was not handled well.. I'd understand the aggression and yelling if if the boys were actually being aggressive themselves, or repeatedly ignoring requests... but to just go straight in with the yelling demands at them is of course going to make them act defensively... it really does sound like this guy needs complaining about so he can get some deescalation training

We don’t generally have handheld electronic devices here either. Only a small number of areas have them so the paper recipt is issued here.

Just ask for a copy of the search from the police station. Police need to have grounds to search so that'll be provided.

As for giving their name, there is no need - a collar number will suffice. You go giving out your full name and before you know it you'll be wanting to move house.

Sounds like the very fact your DS's thought the car pulling over was to sell them drugs makes me think there is a need for proactive policing in your area.

Is it really proactive policing to jump out of an unmarked car, dressed in plain clothes shouting at a teenage boy and expecting them to react well??

You say the officer told your son to take his hands out of his pockets? Did he? If not and my colleague was right in front of him, I'd have shoved him against a wall too, he may have had a knife

Did he take his hands out of his pockets when asked? The male officer may have thought he had a knife.

Is it really proactive policing to jump out of an unmarked car, dressed in plain clothes shouting at a teenage boy and expecting them to react well

Is it really too much to ask of parents that they teach their children to be respectful?

Is it really too much to ask that they support the police and severely reprimand their children when they fail to comply with them?

Entitled much?

@Krisskrosskiss I suspect there is a little more to the story here. And yes, if they don't when first asked of course it is.

Have the boys been in trouble with the police before, OP?

And since you describe your older DS as an adult I assume he has a job and respects authority at work.

OP, you come across as the epitome of privilege. Your sons are wondering around at night and appeared suspicious enough for plain clothes officers to approach them. As unfortunate as it might be, your DS insomnia induced nightly walks might have well coincided with someone casing the area for burglaries, muggings, drug dealing or other crimes. Instead of showing some common sense when encountering police officers, your DS acted pretty shifty and got a bit lippy. While you gave an explanation for those nightly walks, your DS might not be quite the innocent lambs you think they are. Rather than feeling outraged, perhaps you should teach your DS some common sense, manners and to cooperate when they deal with police officers after appearing to act suspiciously. Why did your DS back away, swore at them and reacted so evasive? That does not sound innocent at all! You sound a bit entitled and naïve. Can you actually be that sure that your DS weren’t up to something, smoking a joint or being disruptive?

'DS was sullen but cooperative with the woman, when the man started shouting from the car for him to take his hands out of his pockets' ... this sounds like the police man did not ask your son to take his hands out of his pockets but just went straight in with the shouting and aggression... I imagine he did ,maybe did think your son had a knife but how on earth is his approach helpful there? If your son did have a knife he might have been startled by the shouting and used it! Before the police officer could get there... why on earth did the man not calmly come over and ask the boy to take his hands out of his pockets so they could see he didnt ahve a weapon.. what made him go in all guns blazing when your sons were merely stood talking to the female police officer? It does sound like the man acted very inappropriately.

A 17 yo boy with his hands in his pockets while a female police woman talks to him and his brother. Of course he is going to be searched, how are the police to know if he has a knife in that pocket or not. It's pretty much common sense to keep your hands where they can be seen when being approached by the fuzz I would have thought.

Sounds like your DS(17) caused most of this tbh.

None of us will know if the officers approach was the right one or not. Or if the lads were out of order as none of us were there.

kriss You can surely understand why a person is restrained during a search? It’s usually just holding the wrist during a compliment search or more robustly if needed.

Its not entitlement to acknowledge how frightening that situation couldve been for those boys. We are not talking about police officers in clear uniform calmly addressing these boys... for which I would 3xpect kid to be taught to react politely and calmly. We are talking about an aggressive plain clothes officer randomly starting to yell at them fro an unmarked car. I'm a grown woman and idve reacted quite negatively to that not out of entitlement but out of fear. I think it's more the job of the police to actually recognise that this can be the case and not needlessly exacerbate situations which could have been peaceful and simple.

Hmm, I’m quite surprised that people feel it’s a-okay to be stopped by the police while out for a walk. I’d feel intimidated and threatened, and if they were in plain clothes I’d be terrified (as who’s to say they are who they say they are?). I don’t blame your younger son for being freaked out.

Hi
I’m a little bit confused with this post to be honest, what actually is the issue here ?

why on earth did the man not calmly come over and ask the boy to take his hands out of his pockets so they could see he didnt ahve a weapon

Because police officers get stabbed by members of the public.

That's why.

I am in very little doubt they will have identified themselves and had their warrant cards around their necks.

But why did he need to be restrained? If the policeman had been calm and polite them with them first he might not have needed to do that. Why did he go in aggressively like that? I dont think he sounds very good at his job and it's going to eventually land him in some trouble there....

I think what's important to remember here is that policing is dangerous. There are times for pleasantries but sometimes you just need to get straight to the point and this seemed to be the case, particularly as the lads seemed to be uncooperative.

Seems like this distrust of the police stems from the OP, who doubts the officer gave her the correct collar number.

Because if you are searching someone for weapons or drugs you need to have control of their hands. That’s common sense and even the most politest of searches will generally be done under those conditions.

On the hands/pockets issue, I'm not exactly sure, (thats the kind of minutiae that DS2 and the policeman were squabbling over).

He had his hands in his pockets when he was talking to the policewoman and when the policeman shouted. By the time he was being searched and backing away, his hands were out of his pockets. DS1 was searched first.

"The police have the power to stop and search you if an officer has reasonable grounds to believe that you have been involved in a crime, or think that you are in possession of a prohibited item. Prohibited items include drugs, weapons and stolen property."

I actually agree that I don't understand why people give the police a hard time. They do a dangerous job and I'd much rather be stopped and searched a million times than have police not doing it and people continue to randomly get stabbed.

However, if you really wanted to complain, then it doesn't seem like they had grounds to conduct a stop and search based on what you've mentioned here. They would need to have reasonable grounds to suspect the involvement of your sons in some kind of illicit activity and, if I recall correctly, the police cannot base their reasoning for stop and search on appearance based factors (like their age) unless there is something about their appearance tying them to a gang.

On the other hand, your boys could have come off much worse than being stopped by the police and being scared from a search. If they are going to walk late at night in an area that the police are saying has a high incidence of crime then they face far worse risks and rather than complain to the police, I would be focusing on teaching your sons coping mechanisms for if they end up in situations that scare them. I always thought it was just basic common sense to comply with a police officer's instructions anyway. I presume they would have announced themselves as officers/shown their credentials even if they were plain clothed.