AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

What was the "reasonable suspicion" the police had before they took action.

Just "walking around" isn't enough. And neither is "being young". Or indeed "being out late". The police must have seen something that gave them cause for reasonable suspicion and that should be noted in the record they left.

Why is everyone posting as though the OP's son just started swearing at a police officer out of the blue and so everything that happened was a well deserved result of that? The OP clearly states, and says this isn't in dispute with the police, that the swearing was after he was aggressively grabbed and pushed against the wall. It sounds to me like a shock reaction which of course would be far less likely to have happened had the officers approached the situation with a bit of civility and explained what needed to happen first.

I used to walk around late at night as an insomniac teenager too and can't imagine I'd have reacted much better to being shouted at like a criminal and pushed around.

@Ritascornershop
"Hmm, I’m quite surprised that people feel it’s a-okay to be stopped by the police while out for a walk."

Do you not think that every knife carrying young person says they are merely out for a walk, when stopped?

I hate the Police. But they don't deserve to die on duty and are, after all, keeping the streets safe.

But in that moment, the Police woman was in danger, because the DS could have had anything from knuckle dusters/stun gun, knife, to acid.

OP, as well as everything that's been said, i hope your Sons are aware of the physical advantage they have over Women, so they can alter there body stance to one that's less threatening.

Your Son was being a prick for no reason and needs, telling so, or one day the consequences will be worse.

Your younger son needs a talking to about respect. He could get himself into serious trouble if he carries on with that attitude to police officers.

We've lost count of the number of times our daughter has been pulled over by marked and unmarked police cars when driving late at night/early hours (due to odd working hours) and breathalysed. The most recent was 3am and when they approached her car they asked why she was driving so slowly so she told them she was observing the 30mph speed limit. Asked the usual where had she been where was she going and then followed her to her house (nearby) to make sure she got in safely. She said it's annoying but they are only doing their job.

I think you need to be concerned why someone this young suffers that kind of insomnia. This needs to be addressed before it becomes the norm. Chronic Lack of sleep can not only impact him physically but also emotionally including irrational behaviour, irritability and anxiety (his reaction to the police and “squabbling” with his brother whilst relaying what happened).

@AdoreTheBeach, the insomniac brother complied with the police. It was the younger brother who had the issue with the police. And it was the policeman he squabbled with, not his brother.

@bookworm4 sorry to jump on this thread but is this bookwormk from netmums? 😊

We all like to think that we are reasonable people and if stopped by the police, as we have done nothing wrong, will be fine about it. Until we are stoped. "Why us". We get defensive. Young guys can get a bit gobby. My otherwise law abiding Godson can get rather gobby and has had a few run ins with the police (drunken behaviour) so I know how it can very quickly go tits up.

I remember leaving a gig with a friend. We were merrily tipsy and thought it would be great to push a shopping trolley along the road. Christ it made a din! Out pops a Huuuge policeman, hands on hips and reads us the riot act. We weren't that drunk that we would think it clever to mouth back, thankfully!

A police officer was literally murdered the other week on duty. Your son was acting like a prick and they just can't take the chance. Tell him to act more like his older brother in future.

Your younger son needs a talking to about respect. He could get himself into serious trouble if he carries on with that attitude to police officers.

This

He's 17 not 7. Plenty old enough to comply with the police and argue about it later if necessary. Sounds like he was the cause of the issues by refusing to comply. I'd say he got off lightly.

Sorry NRTFT but it doesn’t sound like there were reasonable grounds for a stop and search! If I was walking about at night and police randomly stopped me to try and search me I’d laugh at them. Then empty my pockets and tell them to get on with their jobs. When I was 18 police would just drive straight past me anyway! Maybe my area is different

I don’t think your being unreasonable at all. Those police officers overstepped the mark, they can’t stop and search people on a hunch, they have to have reasonable belief (based on actual facts not a feeling) that a crime was being committed. Clearly here they just saw two teenagers and decided they were criminals. Yeah maybe your son should have kept his cool but those police officers should not have used their position to intimidate some kids. I would speak to a solicitor and make a complaint about an illegal stop and search.

I would be livid with my son if he came home swearing and arguing with the police. He's not above the law.

I’d be quite gobby too if a PLAIN clothes police officer in an unmarked car had started shouting at me from said unmarked car & grabbed me when I failed to cooperate.

Your ds was probably confused & stressed. I blame the police officer.

As far as your son was concerned he could have been anybody & wearing fake ID. I wouldn’t have cooperated in this scenario either & I'm 53.

Your ds behaviour would most likely have been different if the police had been wearing uniform & in a marked car. I know mine would have been.

Plain clothes & unmarked- no way in a million years I’d cooperate. They could have been drug dealers, trying to mug/rape me. Not a chance I’d do as they demanded.

I think we are living in a very strange world if yu can’t go for a walk at 3.00am. Comments from PP saying that now these teens have learnt you just dont do that is equivalent to saying that there is a curfew in place.
Not one set up by law but one sort of self I posed in that you should be expecting to be searched and in trouble if you do so.

Is that really the sort of society we want to live in?

All the comments about speaking with respect, staying calm, not putting your hands in your pockets etc.... remind me of the advice black mothers give to their child in the US.... Again a trend I am not keen on at all.

Because basically what you are all saying is that it’s ok for PLAIN police officers to act in a non calm manner if they dint have extremely cooperative person in front of them.

Go just a little further and you have all the EXCUSES used by policemen in the US about why the shot someone.

I think that the issue of ‘how long has the card stating they are the police being shown’ is an essential point. These two persons NEEDED the time to be able to read it and ascertain it WAS the police in front of them. Anyone being on high alert in front on two adults in a hoody is quite normal at that time of the day.
I also think that I would put the aggressivity if the policeman into question too.

The fact that they came in barging and insisting the teens would be charged (with what??) and then calmed down also shown there was a lot of display of unnecessary force. If there was a good reason to charge them or if the two boys had actually done something wrong, they would have been charged.

No, you lucky the police didnt change your sons. Swearing to a policeman is not good. Youve only heard one side your sons and that sounds bad.

they can’t stop and search people on a hunch, they have to have reasonable belief (based on actual facts not a feeling)

And what facts?

The fact that plain clothes officers are patrolling at night suggests they are in operation. Possibly looking for someone or watching for something happening. Maybe its suspected some teens from the unit mentioned, are involved in something.

2 teens out for a stroll in the middle if the night because one of them cant sleep, is suspicious. The female officer spoke to them first.

The fact that one was arsey when spoke to and one had is hands in his pockets, all suggests they are up to something.

As a mother of a teenager, I think it's quite normal to be suspicious of 2 teens 'out for a stroll' at that time if night.

You speak about needing facts, they dont have to explain exactly what they are doing out patrolling at that time if night.

If the teens had just behaved like the police were just trying to do their job, which their were, this would have likely ended differently.

OP saying, he needed to go to the other room to calm down, whilst understandable, did you expect the police to sit their all night waiting for him to calm down.

OP I know a few police officers. By and large they are great but there are definitely more than a few who really relish the power in their job. Sounds like the female officer was sorting it calmly and the male officer really ramped up the situation. The threat to charge your son was very unnecessary and is not going to help relations between the police and young people. I am not sure there is much you can do because if you report it I am sure a reason will appear for the stop and search and you will be told they were doing their job, which they were but I agree it sounds very scary and heavy handed. I can't say I would not become panicked in a similar situation and not be the most calm and compliant.

Having had to testify against a gang of lying police officers in London who charged a young black man with GBH after they had accosted him and his family, I will never assume that the police are telling the truth simply because they are police. That young black man was only found innocent because I happened to be hanging out my window that night (9+ months pregnant) and witnessed the whole thing.
I am sorry your ds' had to go through this experience. One would hope that adults (police or not) might be better behaved and display more understanding in such a situation.

I am in Los Angeles, where things have been pretty bad in this regard, but I've seen enormous changes in how the police interact with the public. One thing that has been helpful has been training for all officers on how to deal with the mentally ill and developmentally delayed and people on the spectrum. It sounds like some better training for the police (and the boys) might have helped in the OP's ds' situation.

I would be livid with my son if he came home swearing and arguing with the police. He's not above the law.

Much as you might like it to be, arguing with the police is not actually against the law. Otherwise we would be living in a police state.

No, you lucky the police didnt change your sons. Swearing to a policeman is not good. Youve only heard one side your sons and that sounds bad.

No, she hasn’t. She heard both sides, and the policeman and the son agrees on the material points.

Neither one appears to have splattered themselves in glory. But ultimately, in a situation like this, only gonna be one winner and younger boy needs to learn to zip it, comply, and then complain later.

Police officers in Scotland do not routinely wear body cam so even greater reason to “keep the heid”.

PS. Your ds might benefit from vitamin d supplementation. Vitamin D is essential for sleep regulation and given that you are in Scotland, he's probably vitamin d deficient.

Myriade your post makes no sense. They were originally confronted by 2 adults in hoodie. They were approached by the police women first who did produce her badge. The reason the woman approached first is to give them time to understand what's going on without feeling threatened or that it's too confrontational.

The man got involved when he observed one of them with their hands in their pocket and didnt came over originally.

You have no idea if they had the intention. To charge or not and then changed their mind.

Theres lots of assumptions in your post, and ignoring of detail OP has put in it.

I think we are living in a very strange world if yu can’t go for a walk at 3.00am

It was 11pm, not even that late.

You need to find out the reasons for the stop & search but I would be wary of making too much of a fuss.

Yes it is better to comply with police but not everyone knows how they will react particularly if the police are plain clothed. I wouldn't assume just because someone in police clothes said they were police that they actually were.

As someone who grew up in South London in the 80s/90s & has lots of BAME friends I can certainly say that some police are great & some are awful. Yes things have improved but they are still a lot of power mad bad eggs.

Horrified by the anti-police sentiments levelled by a few posters on here. Let's hope you're never in trouble and need them, eh?