AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

@Slightaggrandising Yes, the policeman definitely said "charge".

DS2 was clearly upset. I asked him to go into a separate room to take some time out and calm down while I spoke to the police, but the policeman insisted that he had to be in the room as he was charging him. (Although he decided not to in the end).

@Krisskrosskiss
The basic facts arent really in dispute. DS2 was sullen but co-operative with the woman, when the man started shouting from in the car to get his hands out of his pockets, then came over and announced that they were being searched. DS2 backed away, Policeman pushed him against a wall and held his wrists, at which point DS2 swore at him repeatedly, then both DSs were bundled into the police car and brought home. I didnt get a clear answer on why they were searching them, or what they suspected them of (which in the end I think led to him dropping the BoP charge as I strongly suspect it was an illegal stop and search).

@Sunflowers211
I do agree that DS2 was ...unhelpful, but someone stopping you in the street in the middle of the night and patting you down is a really awkward and creepy situation, so I can understand him being a bit freaked out. But I would have thought that the police would have training to deal with those kinds of situations and de-escalate. Instead, I genuinely felt like I was trying to calm him down from when he came into my house until the time that he left.

You asked for MN best pearl-clutching.

I'm clutching mine at the thought that you consider this was reasonable and respectful behaviour towards the police.

If parents cannot teach their children to be cooperative with people in authority it's no wonder we have such an entitled population these days.

Your boys were out of order, not the police

Given what you've said then yes, I really would make a complaint and I would point out how frightened your 16 year old was by the plain clothes officer yelling at him. There was no need for him to behave like that. As I said I was a rowdy teen and even at points visibly on drugs... and yet I have never had a bad experience with a police officer because they approached me calmly and politely in clear uniform to ask if I was okay... and so I politely complied with them. This police officer is not worth his salt if he thinks this is the way to deal with youngsters on the streets and he does really need complaining about.

The police were doing their job, your son was disrupting that. County Lines task forces to prevent drug trafficking by boys your sons ages is a huge issue at the moment.
I’m sure you’d be more upset if there were drug dealers in the area your sons could bump into.

I mean physically restraining someone who is moving away from you when you believe them to be a young kid is deeply unethical... of understand if your son was being aggressive towards him but backing away would suggest fear not aggression. This police officer needs retraining.

Of course the police will physically restrain someone who is moving away from them after being detained for a search! That’s in the training.

It most certainly is not part of the police training to physically restrain a child who is not posing a direct threat... physical restraint is supposed to be a last port of call

“I’m sure you’d be more upset if there were drug dealers in the area your sons could bump into”

There are drug dealers everywhere.

I’m a bit confused OP tbh. If the police started shouting at your son to be searched then they have handled it badly.

I’d be trying to get a clearer picture of what actually took place.

You are wrong. It is perfectly correct to restrain a 17 year old during a search, and is good practice. I have searched more people over the years than I care to remember and do annual officer safety.

Chatting with sons in background, so more details...

Apparently the car stopped first, and called them over, both DS ignored it because they thought it was someone trying to sell them drugs or ask about drugs. They walked on. Car stopped and woman came over to talk to them, later the man got out and shouted from the other side of the road.

DS1 asked for the police officers name in the police car on the way back, Policeman refused to give it to him, but gave him his badge number (although I'm actually suspicious of the number he gave him). I didnt see bodycams on them, but I didnt think to look or ask.

Both my sons are white and I live in an urban area.

Nope. He could have had a knife on him.
YABU, you should have taught your sons by now that a)police do stop and searches and b) to not swear at a police officer.

I disagree it's good practice. Its not illegal but it's a last resort... If the police officer was acting exactly as the op describes he needlessly escalated the situation. Did he have strong season to believe the pair were carrying drugs? Were they really aggressive towards him? If not why on earth has he acted so aggressively towards them? A bit of swearing after being shouted at and backing away does not merit being physically restrained and threatened with being charged! Especially by young kids. He overreacted massively if things are exactly as the boys have recounted. And that's not helpful in the wider scheme of things because these are two normal boys who are probably now going to view the police with suspicion and fear.

Of course 17 year-olds can be restrained, and if one was backing away from an officer and swearing at him I would be surprised if they weren't restrained.

What was your DS expecting the officer to do? Just walk off and do nothing?

The police had no idea if your sons were up to no good and the only way they could determine this was by asking them and searching them.

When the police arrest known criminals do you think the general public would have been happy if they'd let them get away because they were backing away and swearing?

That is classed as not cooperating and the police would be right to detain (with reasonable force) anyone who did not comply.

You can't have it both ways. People want more police on the streets but the public need to be supportive of the officers they do have.

the man started shouting from in the car to get his hands out of his pockets, then came over and announced that they were being searched. DS2 backed away, Policeman pushed him against a wall and held his wrists

Did your son take his hands out of his pockets when asked?

Sorry but your boys sound like rude, entitled brats. Who the hell speaks to the police like that?! I'd be disgusted with him. He's very lucky not to be arrested for obstruction.

Instead of bashing the police for doing their job, why don't you explain to your boy that his behaviour is inexcusable. The police have probably picked a burglar up off of your streets tonight, but you won't hear about that part so who cares?

Sorry to be rude but I'm so fed up of this anti police culture. We wonder why crime has skyrocketed, yet we won't let them do their job because 'human rights' and 'noone can tell us what to do'.

You dont get kids on the street to cooperate with you by shouting at them and aggressively moving towards them whilst dressed in plain clothing and refusing to give your name... of course anyone can be restrained by the police.. whether it's best practice to do so is entirely another matter. Idve been terrified personally.. I'm not surprised the boys didnt initially stop for the car. If hes acted as described that police officer did everything to make the situation worse. He needs retraining about how to handle situations.

were they given any paperwork regarding the search?

Neither of my sons, nor I, was given any paperwork.

I always gave my shoulder number when asked for my name. It’s my unique identifier. We have two cops with the same name in our department so giving your number identifies you easier.

Id be bolshy and swear at someone trying to search me based on zero probable cause too

Op, they should have been offered a search receipt however can refuse it and that refusal should be recorded in the officers notebook. You can get it retrospectively (for your younger son anyway)

They need to cooperate with the police. And, specifically, they need to take their hands out of their pockets when told to. Are you not aware of the prevalence of knife crime in that age group?

It's very odd they didnt give you paperwork... I was searched at a station once in my early twenties for loitering! I was just let on my way after they searched me and I got a slip detailing who I was searched by and why... again they were very polite.

Sorry, I should say that your sons can refuse it, and that refusal should be recorded.