I don't inspire confidence in clients because of how I look... apparently.

[Getterfeck]

NC’d for this because it’s probably outing and I know my boss’s wife uses mumsnet but I’ve been here a long time (but never screamed at a chapel or been a fan of pombears or cutted up pear).

I had a difficult meeting with a client today, I work in a service industry, agency based so spend a lot of my time in front of clients chatting about the performance of their activity and the returns on their investments etc. I’m good at my job, I’m the head of a team of 8 people who are also good at their jobs and we tick along fine.

The difficult conversation arose because the client is challenging and doesn’t listen to our advice. They’ve done something against our advice which has damaged their performance and the call was to discuss how we move forward on this. All good.

After the call, my boss said (completely out of the blue), ‘None of this would have happened if they trusted us in the first place’.

I agreed and went to leave but he told me to sit back down so I did. He then said ‘you’re the head of XXX department, they should be hanging on your every word not disregarding you completely’......

I agreed, can’t remember what I said but sort of said I’d work on building their trust, and he said ‘they’re not going to trust you, they’re old school and you don’t look right’

So I asked what he meant and he went bright red and he said ‘you’re not what they expect when they hear you’re head of XXX, you don’t inspire confidence’..

I’m 28 years old (admittedly young for the job), northern, female and fat. I’m a size 18 and I dress well for work and more importantly I know my shit. I get feedback from clients all the time expressing they’re impressed with my knowledge, feel like I and my team are experts etc. I don’t wear a lot of makeup or heels or anything on a normal day but for client meetings I’ll dress up a bit more etc.

Anyway, I wasn’t having that so I asked ‘exactly what bit of my appearance do you think doesn’t match expectations?’ And he then backpeddled and said that’s not what he meant.

I can’t shake it though. I KNOW exactly what he meant, he meant people don’t think I’m capable and judge me before I enter the room because I have the audacity to be both fat and a woman. It’s like you can be one or the other, never both.

I feel completely humiliated and really dejected. I’ve done well in my career, I’m the youngest woman with my job title in a large geographical area (recognised in an industry press publication recently) and I’ve worked bloody hard to get here. No one has handed me any of it and I’m here because I’m good at what I do. I know that, but I feel like I’m never ever going to be ‘as good’ as a man would be in my role, or as a woman who ‘looks right’ would be since a large part oft job is gaining the trust of clients and I just can’t do that.

Right now I want to quit and get a job doing the technical side of my role where I don’t need to speak to clients. I think I know IBU, but I’ve no idea what to do to fix it

I'd arrange a coffee or drink with the female higher boss and bring it off off record and ask for tips

Than assert your femininity and with her support stand tall and don't let the men bring you down

Tech companies are notorious havens of sexism, all male dominated sectors generally are. The gaming industry has a terrible reputation with regards to equality, there’s an entitlement and fear that ‘having a penis’ is no longer a pre requisite for tech roles. They like to promote their ‘right-on-ness’ but when it comes to women they are firmly in the dark ages, how dare women challenge male privilege. Some supposedly grown arse men are identifying themselves as involuntary celibate, depressingly that’s an actually a thing now.

Absolutely Fuc£ that $hit..i felt chuffed for you just reading what you've accomplished at28-deffo a touch of the green-eye from the knob who made the comment!!..same old crap for women eh-..since when did make-up&hair equate to inspiring clients?! Does ur dress code stipulate such nonsense?Course not.Its a dumb comment by someone who should know better(hence the backpeddling)i had the same treatment in snr role at size 20&dropped to a12.. work do's the worst where i got hit on like never before despite being larger after havingDC&smaller coz i bought a treadmill/did keto..its bollocks but it happens,hold your head high,feel proud&know your value isnt based on what you chose or dont chose to smear on your face every day.

This sounds like he has a problem, definitely not you!
Would he have said the same thing to a man? I would definitely report this to HR. He is completely out of order (the fact that he went red shows he knows this too, IMO)

For some jobs weight, clothes, accent do matter though so perhaps getting your weight down to about 10 stone and losing the Northern accent and going to an expert on how to dress well to impress people might be a good idea or a life coach on how to engender gravitas.

Interesting little insight into Xenia's psyche there, especially from one who so-say champions women returning to work. Doesn't look like she regards women as equal after all.

OP, can I just say, you sound absolutely spectacular.

OP I echo others on this thread - you sound awesome; you sound like someone I would be privileged to work with! Your boss communicated nothing of value in his feedback, what he said isn’t instructive and won’t help you in your career; he sounds like he needs training.

However I’m concerned that if you’ve come on here to get that boost of recognition and acceptance, fine - but - there are things from your posts that make me feel a more skilled, less dinosaur boss could have helped you.

Do you want to improve professionally? You sound frustrated that clients don’t instantly “get” the black and white, incontrovertible proof of rightness from your data and presentations? You mentioned “fuck them” earlier, if they didn’t get what you sent. If that’s your genuine view, perhaps some of this feeling is subconsciously shaping how you interact? It becomes a vicious cycle when clients are dismissive, then you’re not backed up by immediate line manager; you end up starting from a position of needing to be formal, document everything, and assume your view will be dismissed. It doesn’t help you start from that confident, “I’ve got something to show you” approach that you need.

Bear with me here - I’ve worked agency side, and it’s common to get what I call “Cassandra syndrome” types. Brilliant, tech minded men and women who see everything ahead, and if listened to, would solve our client’s problems in half the time. However for whatever reason (lack of training, lack of mentor, being caught in cycles such as above) they’ve had negative client experiences, so resort usually to firing off “here’s what I think will happen; the choice is yours”. Then , when it happens? We have internal meetings where they eyeroll “look at these morons... I did tell them”.

Only thing is, these morons pay for our salaries, which pay for us to be able to play in the sandpit.

I’m not advocating ANYTHING in the region of changing appearance, my god that’s so irrelevant here and respect for being fabulous and you.

What I’m advocating is perhaps a change of mindset. Your posts indicate you feel dismissive of your boss for his feedback, of your clients for their lack of acceptance, to your male colleagues for being uniform types that succeed on their look.

So, here’s a challenge. If hypothetically you could never move jobs again, then what can you positively do and change in your approach and mindset that would allow you to form a bond with your client whereby they say “this person isn’t flinging Cassandra like data at me... they’re my business partner and I listen to my business partner”.

@GinDaddy
Good post.
The OP has a chance to enhance her skills from this experience if she wants to.

There's nothing to learnt from leaving it at, her Boss is an idiot.

If the OP wants his job in the future and beyond, she needs work on enhancing her ability to get through to clients.

#clientgoals.😁

I think that is exactly what she will do. You don't get to her position at 28 without self analysis and self awareness.

She will learn from this and be more effective from it.

@Getterfeck - what really stands out to me is that you believe the things your boss has said. Why?! One twatty client ignores you and your boss says it's because you don't inspire confidence. Hang the fuck on! Isn't it more likely that you DO inspire confidence, which is why you are bloody good at your job, but this one client ignored you because they're idiots? What I'm saying is this - don't decide you need to get out of client facing work based on one clealy-wrong assessment of one rare situation!

“The reason I think it’s gender/ weight related is that age isn’t really a barrier to career progression in my field.“

And yet you talk about your boss’ boss, the woman who fills up a room with her confidence and presence.

Sorry OP but I don’t think this is any of those things - it’s about your “presence”- that confidence, that charisma, that charm that makes a potential client sit up and listen to what you’re saying. Or your lack of it. You mentioned your boss passed you over for a pitch. Have you ever landed a client? Despite all your wonderful knowledge, it boils down to - 1/ can you bring in new clients? 2/ can you retain existing ones?

It often doesn’t matter how much of an idiot the client is - part of your job is to get them to listen to you. If you can’t, you lose the client for the company.

Yeah this is what my FiL thought about me. I could never be quite fully respected because I was just a bit too big for his liking. So the criticism would rear its head in other ways. Words like 'unprofessional' and 'sloppy' were used to comment on my appearance.

@LazyDaisey

Exactly, this.

Client-facing advisory doesn't necessarily require smarm or polish, although some of the types the OP mentioned may naturally have it (and use it to cover their lack of product knowledge!).

But client facing advisory does require an ability to draw the client into your confidence, form a rapport and persuade them to listen to you.

All of this can be learned and you can adapt and enhance your own personality to provide touching off points for the client. I'm by nature a bit quirky and was introverted, but I analysed meetings I'd had previously, found a mentor in the business, and found ways to bring out the best of what I had.

My slightly cheesy phrase earlier of "become their business partner" is cheesy, yes - but for me it's the mindset.

I appreciate none of this however deals with the OP's other major issue of a potentially misogynist boss, but plenty of other posters have suggested very good ideas with that etc.

Get yourself a nice make over; New hair, nails, new outfits and give them your best 'fuck you' attitude !
You're awesome at your job regardless of how you dress or your weight ! Get your confidence up and love yourself more

Bobby, my comment applies equally to men. Go and look at newish hired people in highish paid work in companies that pay a lot and those who don't and you can see the different in appearance ( as well as qualifications) between the two. I am not saying obese men and women and those who choose not to wear the clothes that others do in their industry cannot get on but it can make a difference. Also I don't know many men or women of 18 stone who would not prepare to be a healthy weight so losing weight is not exactly bad advice. It is the advice every doctor in the country would give for a start.

@Xenia

ok, i'm going to have to do this...

My father is XXL, a big chap. As it happens, he always wear suits from M&S (he has a thing for the machine washable variety).

I'm M in size, and wear made-to-measure tailored from my time in HK.

My father probably earns 3 x more than me. He is a chief financial officer for a multinational. His appearance has never, ever made a difference.

If someone went to "go and look at him", they wouldn't be able to see his qualifications, his experience. It's not written on his frame or his comportment. He is a soft spoken, amazing human being who leads people the right way.

Xenia, your view may apply if you're working in face to face sales for certain products, the kind of situation where people are sharing copies of Napoleon Hill / NLP books, or watching Glengarry Glen Ross as a documentary etc.

It doesn't actually apply in multinationals where HR is all over this kind of thing, where people are hired for their experience and ability to present solutions for the business etc..

It's not your weight. It's because your a woman

He is being an arse

I bet it is youre a woman, and jot your weight.i read an article where a man and women changed their first names on their emails to make them appear to
Be the opposite sex. The man, or always had assumed he was just better at the role, suddenly found himself having to take twice as long to deal with clients as they wanted proof confirmation and explanation of everything he suggested. Suddenly the workload increased and was incredibly pointless and draining for him. The woman found she completed her workload significantly quicker because the clients just took on what she suggested and didnt question it.

I find this at work too. Ive been complained about for being rude when i am only giving thecsame information that the men are giving. I tell people what we need, a legal document amongst the requirements and often they push back. Like i will just shrug and say ok never mind i was only making that up to be on the safe side.

Ive had to start using some stock phrases which i would have avoided a year ago to avoud sounded like a robot but now i just come out with it. "This is the process" and "im working according to our process". I wouldnt have to come out with this robotoic talk but when people argue with the process, part of which is legal 🙈🤷‍♀️ i find it hard to manage the conversstion without sounding rude when i confirm that YES what I SAID we need you to do is what we need you to do.

I wouldn't let anyone speak to me like that, I'd have walked out. Some jobs do nothing for your self esteem and confidence.

OP I'm delighted you are feeling better. I love your attitude, your confidence and approach.

I think you've fit your head around your boss's stupidity and keeping that link with the female boss, who sounds inspiring, sounds like a class idea

Also wanted to say, congrats on the (hopefully now fully confirmed) pregnancy and all the best with this new chapter and yes! Enjoy telling dickhead boss!

We had a younger member of the SLT here who was a bit scruffy and overweight. They made him run all the “Wellness” initiatives. Bastards. FTSE 100 Bastards.

I am 51 and size 20 but sorry to say Xenia is right I am afraid. Knowing your shit is not enough. You need to look and sound the part. You need to look and sound like them. It’s the reason why we live in a deeply divided society where privilege and wealth begets more privilege and wealth, cutting everyone else out.

Also, respect doesnt come automatically as you age. Id say there's a sweetcspot between 32 and 38 where you're not having either your youth or your maturity held against you.

I have had to work onthis stuff.

I think you sound wonderful, and that your idea about asking your boss's boss for tips about what you could do to improve your 'presence' is spot-on. That would also raise your visibility with her, and she sounds very interesting both as a role model and a potential sponsor who values you.

(If you did this already, what did she say??)