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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I don't inspire confidence in clients because of how I look... apparently.

224 replies

Getterfeck · 27/08/2019 18:35

NC’d for this because it’s probably outing and I know my boss’s wife uses mumsnet but I’ve been here a long time (but never screamed at a chapel or been a fan of pombears or cutted up pear).

I had a difficult meeting with a client today, I work in a service industry, agency based so spend a lot of my time in front of clients chatting about the performance of their activity and the returns on their investments etc. I’m good at my job, I’m the head of a team of 8 people who are also good at their jobs and we tick along fine.

The difficult conversation arose because the client is challenging and doesn’t listen to our advice. They’ve done something against our advice which has damaged their performance and the call was to discuss how we move forward on this. All good.

After the call, my boss said (completely out of the blue), ‘None of this would have happened if they trusted us in the first place’.

I agreed and went to leave but he told me to sit back down so I did. He then said ‘you’re the head of XXX department, they should be hanging on your every word not disregarding you completely’......

I agreed, can’t remember what I said but sort of said I’d work on building their trust, and he said ‘they’re not going to trust you, they’re old school and you don’t look right’

Confused

So I asked what he meant and he went bright red and he said ‘you’re not what they expect when they hear you’re head of XXX, you don’t inspire confidence’..

I’m 28 years old (admittedly young for the job), northern, female and fat. I’m a size 18 and I dress well for work and more importantly I know my shit. I get feedback from clients all the time expressing they’re impressed with my knowledge, feel like I and my team are experts etc. I don’t wear a lot of makeup or heels or anything on a normal day but for client meetings I’ll dress up a bit more etc.

Anyway, I wasn’t having that so I asked ‘exactly what bit of my appearance do you think doesn’t match expectations?’ And he then backpeddled and said that’s not what he meant.

I can’t shake it though. I KNOW exactly what he meant, he meant people don’t think I’m capable and judge me before I enter the room because I have the audacity to be both fat and a woman. It’s like you can be one or the other, never both.

I feel completely humiliated and really dejected. I’ve done well in my career, I’m the youngest woman with my job title in a large geographical area (recognised in an industry press publication recently) and I’ve worked bloody hard to get here. No one has handed me any of it and I’m here because I’m good at what I do. I know that, but I feel like I’m never ever going to be ‘as good’ as a man would be in my role, or as a woman who ‘looks right’ would be since a large part oft job is gaining the trust of clients and I just can’t do that.

Right now I want to quit and get a job doing the technical side of my role where I don’t need to speak to clients. Sad I think I know IBU, but I’ve no idea what to do to fix it Sad

OP posts:
Winterlife · 27/08/2019 20:49

Is size 18 really all that large? I'm North American, and that's a size 12 here, which doesn't exactly scream "fat" to me.

Wearywithteens · 27/08/2019 20:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

howabout · 27/08/2019 20:52

Why didn't you escalate to your boss when your client said they were ignoring your advice?

doadeer · 27/08/2019 20:54

*Industry isn’t money, it’s tech.

Same difference. I'd still have more confidence in someone around, say, 40, just because they will have seen more than you have. I post that as someone who has a brilliant son in a tech field.*

Sorry but this is really not the same. The entire tech industry is built around youth. The Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook at 19 culture. I've worked at two multi million pound tech companies whose founders were under 30. The industry isn't built on experience because the tech we use just didn't exist 5 even 10 years ago let alone 30. It's built on creativity, innovation and data analysis. We've have people come to interview that have been discriminated against for being too old! (Not me but colleagues I know). These companies are also massively into "internal culture fit

OP I don't know if your company is anything like this but the ones I work for love people being fashionable, going to gym in their lunch break, competing in triathlons --- it's like a cult.

Herocomplex · 27/08/2019 20:54

I think he’s rattled by your confidence and professionalism so he’s picking on the one thing he thought you couldn’t defend, although you did (well done for that)

If you’re fat, you’re fat. So? Be fat. But if you’re fat and vulnerable to being shamed it’s always a risk.

You sound amazing. 💐

TinklyLittleLaugh · 27/08/2019 20:54

Well obviously the client is looking for someone to blame.

You gave them the correct advice.

They ignored the correct advice.

They can’t say, “Well I ignored the correct advice because I’m a stupid arrogant div.”

So they have to say, “Well I ignored the correct advice because....um....she didn’t inspire confidence in me that it was the correct advice.”

You could have been a 50 year old white man and they would probably have tried the same deflection. They are trying to shift blame. Your boss is pretty stupid to fall for it.

doadeer · 27/08/2019 20:55

We've had* ignore my awful typing I've got A teething baby

Winterlife · 27/08/2019 20:58

Sorry but this is really not the same. The entire tech industry is built around youth. The Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook at 19 culture. I've worked at two multi million pound tech companies whose founders were under 30. The industry isn't built on experience because the tech we use just didn't exist 5 even 10 years ago let alone 30. It's built on creativity, innovation and data analysis. We've have people come to interview that have been discriminated against for being too old! (Not me but colleagues I know). These companies are also massively into "internal culture fit

You are missing the point. It's all about perception, and there definitely are tech people who are middle aged and know what they are doing.

Winterlife · 27/08/2019 21:00

I would not escalate this to HR, OP. It will make an enemy of your boss, and should only be done if this is something that appears in a review, unanswered. I think meeting with his female boss is a brilliant idea. Use her as a mentor and role model.

Getterfeck · 27/08/2019 21:03

Yeah I’m fat, Im not ‘avoid sitting next to on a train’ fat, but I’m definitely ‘try to get ahead of her in any queue for food’ fat Grin

I’m extremely comfortable with my weight though, as I mentioned I got down to 10 stone for my wedding and I was completely miserable. I didn’t feel like myself, had no energy at all and felt constantly knackered. My hair fell out, my loose skin meant I constantly had rashes all over the place and I looked a bit like a melted candle.

After the wedding I regained all 7 stone that I’d lost, it took 2 years and I did it whilst running 30 miles a week (2 10k’s and 2 5k’s plus resistance training once a week). Im a bit bigger at the moment than I want, I’m a bit uncomfortable on long runs because my shins are starting to hurt so I’m currently in the process of going down to 15st. That’s got nothing to do with how I look though, it’s purely practical.

OP posts:
doadeer · 27/08/2019 21:05

I'm not missing the point I'm saying that if a business works with lots of tech companies eg a retailer who has people do their website, analytics, personalisation etc --- many of their client managers will be young because tech companies employ lots of young people. So I don't think the OPs age should be a factor. However it could be difficult for her internally ie how her dipshit boss has gone on because there is a particular internal culture tech companies value and maybe the OP doesn't conform to this.

tttigress · 27/08/2019 21:11

Sorry to here this :(

I am currently in a role which involves me b2b selling services to a major insurance company.

Currently having problems with client, what my manager fails to understand is what ever you say to some customers, they know best (often it is an individual that doesn't mind self sabotaging the company they work for).

It has nothing to do with the way you look or talk, some customers are just like that.

Calmingvibrations · 27/08/2019 21:16

There will always be people who listen more to male, white, middle class, posh accented people. You can’t change them, however your boss should be the one singing your praises and supporting you.

I often sit in meetings and swear a man repeats what I have said and gets a different response etc etc. I’m not fat, but I am quite common accent wise and different to others in my field in that respect.

Good on you for being great at your job and for challenging your boss. Serves your client right - losing money.

I’d try and focus on all the clients that can see how great you are and respect you for it.

TheABC · 27/08/2019 21:16

Yes, you need to move jobs. Preferably the next promotion where he reports to you.

Based on your updates (being passed over for in-house projects), I think he is the sexist dinosaur, looking for an excuse to cover the client. You can't do much about it immediately unless you escalate to HR, but make sure your paper trail from now on is water-tight. He is waiting for you to slip up.

Congrats on the 10k run.

Chalfontstgiles · 27/08/2019 21:18

From the detail that you've given in your post OP, it is only YOU and YOU alone who has inferred that the issue might be to do with your weight! Your boss did not actually say that! I personally think that any person in a professional client facing capacity ought to step back and consider their appearance if they want to be successful and climb the ladder. You said that you don't wear makeup etc.....I'm not suggesting that makeup is the solution but I'm wondering if your overall appearance frankly isn't very "groomed". Is your clothing good, is your skin and hair groomed? Do you look the part? Honestly be objective and if you need to smarten yourself up a bit. I do find this size 18 business your paranoia and probably bullshit. Sorry!

Jente · 27/08/2019 21:19

From my perspective this is shows how strong you are at your job. prejudice against you for the way you look isn't just morally wrong, it's also damn expensive!

OooErMissus · 27/08/2019 21:25

You are missing the point. It's all about perception, and there definitely are tech people who are middle aged and know what they are doing.

Of course there are. But when it comes to tech, it's the younger ones with the innate advantage.

That's not to say that every younger person will be more competent, but that technology is a younger person's game. It just is.

OooErMissus · 27/08/2019 21:26

OP - I would definitely be familiarising myself with the job market.

Why wouldn't you?

Victoriapestis01 · 27/08/2019 21:32

I would sit down with him and say you want to explore the issue.

If the issue is as you suspect your appearance then I’d tell him you don’t think his comments are appropriate, and that you are concerned by them.

But maybe there is something else. Senior women can sometimes feel awkward about exercising authority, particularly when younger. Women are socialised to be ‘nice’: we can avoid pushing back; be too polite; be too keen to please, particularly in face to face meetings (as opposed to emails).

You’ve been quite quick to infer the issue is your appearance, and have compared yourself adversely to his boss: is it possible that despite your success and obvious competence, some lack of confidence is undermining you when engaging with clients? If so this is really useful information to have as it is something you can change- which is why you should pursue it with your boss. You need to know if the issue is this, as opposed to some crap about your appearance.

Don’t leave a role because of this. It wouldn’t be a positive reason. And look at it this way- this particular client won’t ignore your advice again!

pinkpantherpink · 27/08/2019 21:32

Can you speak to his boss, ask for help in how to manage this situation with him? You're not asking her to fix it, but for guidance.

Widowodiw · 27/08/2019 21:32

I think he was referring to the fact that you are a young female. Young probably more the issue. I worked for a local authority once and the team made it perfectly clear they thought I shouldn’t have the job I had as I was in my
Mid twenties.

Getterfeck · 27/08/2019 21:33

My role is data, specifically collection and analysis of very large data sets. I design the systems which ‘learn’ the patterns in that data to make it useful to clients, and the clients are from one specific industry. Basically, every business you’ve ever interacted with houses enormous amounts of data they don’t know what to do with. My job is to design and build systems that digest and understand that data, that are then able to learn patterns of consumer behaviour and predict how digital ‘look alike’ cohorts will in turn behave when they interact with said businesses.

My field didn’t exist 10 years ago, but the industry this sits in certainly did and as you can imagine since it’s data engineering and coding, I’m the only woman in a sea of men. There’s a lot more women in the wider industry but in my field I’m one of a handful (we all know each other and meet for drinks across enemy lines regularly Grin)

The reason I think it’s gender/ weight related is that age isn’t really a barrier to career progression in my field. You get men in their early 30’s in my role all the time but you’re equally likely to come across 60 year olds working in the wider industry and client side.

We’re basically the weird techy kids who sit in the corner with mysterious looking screens while the adults do all the talking Grin

OP posts:
TheClitterati · 27/08/2019 21:34

It's not you OP, it's them. Some people are dicks.

You sound fab op so please pick yourself back up, realise it just a blip (these negative feelings) and don't let the bastards get you down.

Chin up & onwards!!!!

Winterlife · 27/08/2019 21:41

My field didn’t exist 10 years ago, but the industry this sits in certainly did and as you can imagine since it’s data engineering and coding, I’m the only woman in a sea of men.

Then the client's issue probably is that you're a woman. But, go to your boss' boss and ask if anything in your appearance or demeanor could hold you back. Ask her to be brutally honest, not spare your feelings, as you want to know where to improve.

Winterlife · 27/08/2019 21:43

PS - Tell her you admire her, and want to hear this from a successful woman in the field, who you consider your role model.

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