I don't inspire confidence in clients because of how I look... apparently.

[Getterfeck]

NC’d for this because it’s probably outing and I know my boss’s wife uses mumsnet but I’ve been here a long time (but never screamed at a chapel or been a fan of pombears or cutted up pear).

I had a difficult meeting with a client today, I work in a service industry, agency based so spend a lot of my time in front of clients chatting about the performance of their activity and the returns on their investments etc. I’m good at my job, I’m the head of a team of 8 people who are also good at their jobs and we tick along fine.

The difficult conversation arose because the client is challenging and doesn’t listen to our advice. They’ve done something against our advice which has damaged their performance and the call was to discuss how we move forward on this. All good.

After the call, my boss said (completely out of the blue), ‘None of this would have happened if they trusted us in the first place’.

I agreed and went to leave but he told me to sit back down so I did. He then said ‘you’re the head of XXX department, they should be hanging on your every word not disregarding you completely’......

I agreed, can’t remember what I said but sort of said I’d work on building their trust, and he said ‘they’re not going to trust you, they’re old school and you don’t look right’

So I asked what he meant and he went bright red and he said ‘you’re not what they expect when they hear you’re head of XXX, you don’t inspire confidence’..

I’m 28 years old (admittedly young for the job), northern, female and fat. I’m a size 18 and I dress well for work and more importantly I know my shit. I get feedback from clients all the time expressing they’re impressed with my knowledge, feel like I and my team are experts etc. I don’t wear a lot of makeup or heels or anything on a normal day but for client meetings I’ll dress up a bit more etc.

Anyway, I wasn’t having that so I asked ‘exactly what bit of my appearance do you think doesn’t match expectations?’ And he then backpeddled and said that’s not what he meant.

I can’t shake it though. I KNOW exactly what he meant, he meant people don’t think I’m capable and judge me before I enter the room because I have the audacity to be both fat and a woman. It’s like you can be one or the other, never both.

I feel completely humiliated and really dejected. I’ve done well in my career, I’m the youngest woman with my job title in a large geographical area (recognised in an industry press publication recently) and I’ve worked bloody hard to get here. No one has handed me any of it and I’m here because I’m good at what I do. I know that, but I feel like I’m never ever going to be ‘as good’ as a man would be in my role, or as a woman who ‘looks right’ would be since a large part oft job is gaining the trust of clients and I just can’t do that.

Right now I want to quit and get a job doing the technical side of my role where I don’t need to speak to clients. I think I know IBU, but I’ve no idea what to do to fix it

I’m in the bath with Netflix on the TV so I’ve cheered up a bit. Thanks for all the support everyone.

I’ll get over it, I have a mind to go freelance eventually but it’s not the right time for that since I’m pretty sure I’m upduffed (faint positive test a couple of days ago!)... I’ll take enormous pleasure in telling my boss I’m pregnant if/ when the time comes... I plan to take an entire year

For those asking, yes I’m well groomed. I wear dresses for work usually with black tights and ankle boots. Hair is always done (usually up) and I wear a tinted moisturiser, mascara and blush/ some eye makeup every day. For client meetings I wear more structured dresses and heels (normally black dresses with a brightly coloured heel and matching jacket/ bag and some chunky jewellery, I have a few sets).

my boss had said it and not me, despite the fact he’s not an expert in my field and has no hands on experience, they’d have listened

This will forever be true. Men saying stuff get listened to, women don’t.

Now I just chirp up “wow, that’s amazing, if only I’d just said that”

It’s frustrating but don’t ditch your career over it. It will change as you get older, you just have to keep saying those things.

Im 49 and I love clothes and dress well, well groomed generally and it doesnt make anybody respect you or listen to you im
O

Dan o'connor has communicstion and body language tips for women.. i can see i was ssying / doing things that handed away respect. Iyswim.
Ill link it when i find it.

Do you think that he meant because you're a female? Full stop?

You need to just take the criticism and try to prove him wrong

Why does OP need to take criticism over her weight/appearance in the workplace? Her Boss was inappropriate and unprofessional, which he clearly realised since he completely backed down when OP challenged him to be more specific. As for proving him wrong, why is the onus on OP to prove that her weight isn't a barrier to her job performance or her relationship with clients?? She already recieves excellent feedback from the vast majority of her clients so why should she jump through hoops to disprove her Boss's sexist assumptions? The problem is that he shouldn't be making sexist assumptions in the first place!

Getterfeck Your client didn't trust your team/organisation or you, one of the three, or (most likely) a combination of you/your team/your organisation. Your client screwed up. Now they are wanting you to help them get out of the shit.

Your boss, " we have a good, open working relationship normally"; does he really think being fat or female or young are the problem, or is he just scared and talking crazy?

DO NOT change job.

Hold your head high and keep on being fabulous.

And if your boss eludes to this again, get it in writing because if there is any suggestion you cannot do your job, in future, you need to be able to prove what your boss is thinking of, and it is not your performance ability.

My field didn’t exist 10 years ago, but the industry this sits in certainly did and as you can imagine since it’s data engineering and coding, I’m the only woman in a sea of men.

I think you'll find in that field that a client that ignores the advice of a fat woman is likely to ignore the advice of a slim woman. It's not the weight that's the issue, it's the lack of a penis.

Oh god we sound like we do the same job!
What a complete bellend.
I find very few males in my industry - it can be hard. I have almost become too tough to survive however have learnt to take no crap
Good luck ❤️

‘they’re not going to trust you, they’re old school and you don’t look right’

By this, does he mean that this particular client is on the older side (in their 70's) and grew up in an era when women didn't generally have senior roles? Because if he does, then these clients will be popping off in the not-to-distant future and his "observation" will be irrelevant.

Ignore his drivel, OP, you're the future of your industry and any dinosaurs from the "wimmen can't have highly successful careers" era will soon be extinct!

OP, I think you sound awesome. Asking advice from your boss’s boss is a very good call, maybe seeking a mentor?
If anyone is interested in presence and gravitas I can really recommend Amy cuddys Ted talks and books on presence and patsy rodenburg’s youtube talk on second circle are really interesting.

Congrats on the potential upduffedness!!

Ask your boss’s boss if she would consider being your mentor. Then take over the fucking world cos you sound all kinds of awesome 💪🏻

32rue fuck THAT. It’s all about ‘speaking the language of men’ and ‘how to communicate like a man in the workplace’...
Fuckity fuck that shit right out the fucking window.

I’m a woman, I’ll communicate as a woman and men in the workplace who can’t handle that can step the fuck to the side.

I think there could be a multitude of reasons why your client didn't listen to you. Your boss didn't actually say why it was, he just implied it was something to do with you OP (which could quite possibly be arse-covering bullshit to protect the client) and you assumed it was your weight. Personally I would have thought it was the young and female combo rather than weight but we're all just guessing.

The reasons could be:

1. The client is a moron who doesn't listen / thinks they know best and the many variations of this. There are always clients like this.
2. You're a woman (so's half the population)
3. You're relatively young (lucky you!)
4. You're overweight (but happy about it so no issue here)
5. You're Northern and not working in the North (so.....us Northerners will take over the world one day)
6. Any or all combinations of the above.

I'm sure quite a few women on MN have been through something similar. I know I have. Being a young, successful woman in a relatively male dominated industry isn't easy. Despite it being the 21st century, not everyone you work with (clients or co-workers) has caught up.

Rather than focusing on the negatives (i.e. maybe it's because you're overweight, maybe you don't dress like everyone else, etc), focus on what will really make a difference and what you can do to develop and get past this. Forget about weight. That's not the issue. There are just as many clients who will ignore your advice because you're young, slim and attractive. You can't win this one.

You'll get older but that doesn't help right now. You're can't change being a woman so learn to love it (if you don't already) and make the most of that advanced EQ and better communication skills at work. As for being Northern, you can use that to your advantage (as long as you're not doing a 'professional Northerner' act). Be bold, be open, be direct. No-one will ever suspect you of playing politics (which gives you your first office politics win straight off). And people will remember you.

You can't change who you are. But you can change how you behave - which may change how people react to you. You mentioned yourself OP about your lack of presence. I absolutely think this is the real issue.

Most people don't develop a work presence until they're older. I think for women especially this can be hard. We are often ignored yet men repeat what we just said in meetings and everyone congratulates them for their great idea. It's a cliche but it's true. I bet none of those men go home thinking maybe it's my age or my gender or my being Northern or my body shape.

I was fortunate enough (ok, I pestered my boss a lot) to go on a 3 day 'executive presence' course (after I'd made it to the management team - as the only woman, only Northerner and second youngest dept head) and it was fantastic! I can't recommend it highly enough. It was pretty tough at times (especially when your performance is being judged by a room of your peers - all of whom are very talented) but I learnt so much. My course was run by the most lovely and fascinating man called Jeff Black. His company is Black Sheep and I can't recommend them highly enough:

www.blacksheepunleashed.com/about/meet-our-team/jeff-black-the-black-sheep/

Please look into doing some executive presence or leadership training. Or just start with a good book on the subject. Get your boss to support you in this and you can change his negative feedback into a positive for your career development.

Was he actually having a go at you over your weight or appearance though, or just trying to make the point that the clients are so old fashioned and stuck in their ways that, however good you are, they just wouldn't trust you because you're different from the type of person that they have previously encountered. Could he have been trying to make this point in a very clumsy way?

Hey OP.

Firstly respect to the data geeks! I work with some of you guys and you are in an awesome and exciting field (way too techie for me but love what you do!)

Secondly, I'm a northern lass (complete with accent) and I don’t look like your average professional in my field (I’m very small and blonde). I’m also young looking in a field that would expect age = experience=good thing.

So for the last 20 years I’ve had all kinds of comments from bosses and clients about me being too or too young or they’ve spent their time thinking I’m there to be chatted up and not provide advice .

I think there are a few separate issues in your OP:

1. Attitude of Client: definitely unreasonable to rage at you for his own decision.

1. Attitude of Boss: His observation may have been correct as regards lack of trust by client as you are not a stereotype of the role (I know I was not always trusted/wanted by clients because of my accent) Boss may also harbor this attitude or not. Either way he handled it badly. Definitely speak to his female boss and discuss this and point 1. You are so fortunate to have that role model/mentor in close proximity!

1. Is it because you are large? I’m not sure it is – but that’s my personal bias because I’m 5’2” and 8.5 stone and your post resonated so strongly with me.

1. Is it because you are Northern? From my experience this can be an issue – I just ignored it. My accent has softened over time (un-conscious need to assimilate) but most clients want results and will see past their initial skepticism. (It’s harder work to gain their trust though).

1. Should you change away from client facing roles? No! You are good at it but do brace yourself for misogynist snobs and all sorts of other unsavory business types (there’s the woman who doesn’t want other women to get on, the lazy twat who takes all the credit for your work, the bluffer who is over promoted due to their own spin etc etc.) You clearly have the strength of character to withstand this bullshit. But there will always be bullshit.

With regards to the perspective on males/females providing advice and the extra hoops women need to jump through to be taken seriously; this article really chimed with me too:
huffpost link

Is size 18 really all that large? I'm North American, and that's a size 12 here, which doesn't exactly scream "fat" to me.

She’s a size 14 in American sizing, I think, you’re two down from us.

Thanks everyone. I feel loads better

Client is in his early 40’s and refers to ‘millennials’ With utter disdain despite the fact the oldest millennials are 39 .. he seems to think anyone under 30 is a drain on society so I think age might be a big factor.

He also doesn’t understand my job at all, thinks machine learning is fake and it’s actually just a team of people programming stuff in and thinks I’m over qualified (I have a phd) because my job is, and I quote, ‘data entry’

He’s a disrespectful twerp so it’s not beyond possible he has said something to my boss who then said it to me, clumsily.

If that’s the case, fuck him! He couldn’t do my job and neither could my boss

No helpful advice from me but just agreeing that YANBU. As someone who worked in tech as a young woman, I completely get it. I had one very very difficult client who refused to listen to anything I said and I’m absolutely positive it was because of my age and gender. People will tell you you’re jumping to conclusions but you just know. It’s hard to explain. But I also felt like my managers and colleagues sort of enabled it because deep down they felt the same way. I don’t know, it’s hard to explain.

One of my closest friends is also fat, young and Northern working down south, and hearing about the shit she puts up with every single day... it’s mind blowing. Everything from people telling her she’s boorish/uncouth/a bit much (she really isn’t, she’s one of the most eloquent people I know) to a manager randomly diagnosing her with a serious illness (and informing HR!) based on literally nothing but her weight. I have so much admiration for her just getting through the day sometimes with all the crap that she has to put up with.

What an arse. Use that to drive you on and prove him wrong. I know plenty of 'fat' people with influence.

OP,

You sound great, you have worked hard and deserve to do well.

Your boss sounds like a bit of a dick, and petulant with it.

You have good advice, you confirmed it by e-mail.
You recommended that they not do something and again e-mailed.

They ignored you and that is indeed on them.

I think you are very fortunate to have a great role model in your org.

Many women don't and work for misogynistic men.

I wouldn't for a minute think of switching positions.

I would take it as a learning opportunity.
Clearly he'll be of no use to you but sending an e-mail looking for clarification is a wise move.

Wiser is to ask his boss for pointers on how to move forward from what he said.

You agree, you would like to adopt a little more gravitas and I would imagine her advice will be invaluable.

You can explain that whilst you found it offensive and humiliating, you wish to gain from it as you are not going anywhere.

I think you would impress her adopting this position.

Good luck.

Just carry on thinking fuck em. He's a knob - both client and boss. I ve had some knobby clients who thought they knew more than my young staff members. They don't. I told them. I don't care if they take their business elsewhere.

However, being a woman the wrong side of 40 brings a whole new level of prejudice and twattishness. Yes. From men.

I’m a woman, I’ll communicate as a woman and men in the workplace who can’t handle that can step the fuck to the side.

That’s the spirit!

I don't think he sounds like a dick. I think the client does and he didn't know how to handle it/explain (which he should, but that doesn't make him a dick).

Sadly, there are bigots, misogynists, racists, ageists etc in the world. The chances are the key person at the client is a sexist pig. That's something they should feel humiliated by, not you. Your boss would have been much better off saying that the client is a sexist, ageist dick and that's why they don't listen to you, rather than trying to word things euphemistically.

The client's business isn't doing well because of their attitudes. Serves them right! All your other clients think you are great, focus on that, not the dickheads.

Glad youre feeling better.

I have a friend with a seriously senior role. For the crime of being both female and physically noticeable (as opposed to being physically unnoticeable, which is also a crime) she has had the most unbelievable shower of shit pour onto her head almost without stopping since she was promoted to the top. The kind of crap you have nightmares about, which has had to involve the police on multiple occasions for a smorgasbord of different reasons. Anyone who thinks misogyny doesnt exist, talk to her. Glad youre feeling more like roaring.