I don't inspire confidence in clients because of how I look... apparently.

[Getterfeck]

NC’d for this because it’s probably outing and I know my boss’s wife uses mumsnet but I’ve been here a long time (but never screamed at a chapel or been a fan of pombears or cutted up pear).

I had a difficult meeting with a client today, I work in a service industry, agency based so spend a lot of my time in front of clients chatting about the performance of their activity and the returns on their investments etc. I’m good at my job, I’m the head of a team of 8 people who are also good at their jobs and we tick along fine.

The difficult conversation arose because the client is challenging and doesn’t listen to our advice. They’ve done something against our advice which has damaged their performance and the call was to discuss how we move forward on this. All good.

After the call, my boss said (completely out of the blue), ‘None of this would have happened if they trusted us in the first place’.

I agreed and went to leave but he told me to sit back down so I did. He then said ‘you’re the head of XXX department, they should be hanging on your every word not disregarding you completely’......

I agreed, can’t remember what I said but sort of said I’d work on building their trust, and he said ‘they’re not going to trust you, they’re old school and you don’t look right’

So I asked what he meant and he went bright red and he said ‘you’re not what they expect when they hear you’re head of XXX, you don’t inspire confidence’..

I’m 28 years old (admittedly young for the job), northern, female and fat. I’m a size 18 and I dress well for work and more importantly I know my shit. I get feedback from clients all the time expressing they’re impressed with my knowledge, feel like I and my team are experts etc. I don’t wear a lot of makeup or heels or anything on a normal day but for client meetings I’ll dress up a bit more etc.

Anyway, I wasn’t having that so I asked ‘exactly what bit of my appearance do you think doesn’t match expectations?’ And he then backpeddled and said that’s not what he meant.

I can’t shake it though. I KNOW exactly what he meant, he meant people don’t think I’m capable and judge me before I enter the room because I have the audacity to be both fat and a woman. It’s like you can be one or the other, never both.

I feel completely humiliated and really dejected. I’ve done well in my career, I’m the youngest woman with my job title in a large geographical area (recognised in an industry press publication recently) and I’ve worked bloody hard to get here. No one has handed me any of it and I’m here because I’m good at what I do. I know that, but I feel like I’m never ever going to be ‘as good’ as a man would be in my role, or as a woman who ‘looks right’ would be since a large part oft job is gaining the trust of clients and I just can’t do that.

Right now I want to quit and get a job doing the technical side of my role where I don’t need to speak to clients. I think I know IBU, but I’ve no idea what to do to fix it

Wow, your client is younger than me!

This isn't really a generational thing then (although he might frame it as such), he's just a dick with an inferiority complex. I'll bet he secretly hates the fact that you have a PhD!

Your boss has handled this so badly...perhaps getting his job will be your next achievement.

Client screws up, tries initially to pin it on the supplier.

The boss is fed up and takes it out on his staff member in an unprofessional way. You established the client was at fault and they’ve now alluded to that.

This is one client! If you want to change role, do so, but don’t think him making comments about your appearance and presence mean a bloody thing to your future. You are doing well. Don’t overthink your physical appearance, accent or unrelated to work competence and experience. Take him to task.

My sister is retired now, but she was hugely overweight, and was sent all around the world to help clients with their software problems.

Some clients are shit. I could earn a lot more money if I worked directly for my clients, instead of through agencies, but direct clients drive me up the wall.

I think your boss is taking the idea that the customer is always right to a ridiculous level.

For some jobs weight, clothes, accent do matter though so perhaps getting your weight down to about 10 stone and losing the Northern accent and going to an expert on how to dress well to impress people might be a good idea or a life coach on how to engender gravitas.

OP, your post reminded me of what I'd heard Victoria Wood said to Maxine Peak when they did Dinnerladies: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03smghd

It's awful to feel so judged on your appearance and he needs some 'refresher' training on ED&I and possibly a spell of unemployment

Could you have a chat with ACAS?

@Getterfeck well ok, I don't think you watched the clip!

It's not about being more female, or being more female or less female..

It's about tendencies women have, to give away their power with their body language and their choice of words. I found it helpful when I thought I was coming across low status at work. I took on board a few of the situations, such as not nodding too much when somebody is talking to me, not saying sorry. Saying I apologies. Subtle things but I see why they present a more confident self.. If you haven't picked up any of these tendencies due to the way women are conditioned in the home, only to then, later have that conditioning held against them at work, you don't need the clip at all.:-)

I just don't think you're fat enough for it to be that

I think it's far more likely your age and you probably look even younger because you've a bit more fat

I'm only saying this because I am exactly your size and more than 20 years older and I didn't get taken seriously at all until I looked about bloody 40

He is of course a complete arsehole and you should definitely think about addressing it further

Idiot client must be as much of a knobhead as him, then.

I have watched all of those Dan O'Connor tips. Not just that one aimed at women.

No doubt he will be regretting his words now and be wondering if you will submit a complaint about it. I’d be considering it.

Be super proud of who you are are how you got where you did. I’m northern too living down South and sometimes feel my face doesn’t fit. When people make fun of the way I say certain words it peeves me. I definitely have adopted a different accent at work over 20yrs than when I’m back with family and friends. Shouldn’t be that way. Stay as you are, the main feedback is your success. Hold your head high.

And I will say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Northern accent, even if you're presenting Desert Island Discs.

He's intimidated by you. No other reason to put anyone down. Don't let him get to you.

I don’t know on this one. You were having a frank discussion and he said they were old school and basically saying that they were prejudiced against you. He was probably right the clients were discriminatory. Just because they are clients though, and you need their business, that doesn’t make it right and you are good at your job. What if you were black? Would your work want you to change colour?

I guess I’m saying, did it feel like your colleague was trying to tell you that you were wrong?

If so, that’s quite serious, and HR issue.

Or was he trying to be frank about why this issue happened, and the clients prejudice was part of it? In which case that is worth bringing into the open, but in no way an indication that you didn’t do your job well and nothing to do with you as a person.

There’s nothing wrong with the OP Xenia. I know plenty of very successful women who aren’t slim and shock, horror, have northern accents. If certain men are going to be arseholes all your suggestions won’t work.

He's a prat. I can remember taking my cat to the vet and thinking "oh no" the minute I saw her. Within first 30 seconds I could tell she was the best vet that I'd ever come across. Brilliant woman. Dont judge a book by its cover. She sorted my boy out for me. I'll never forget her.

Or the lesson I got!

I think you'll find in that field that a client that ignores the advice of a fat woman is likely to ignore the advice of a slim woman. It's not the weight that's the issue, it's the lack of a penis.
^^this
OP, please don't quit your job. You sound brilliant at it and also that you're a really great woman who could make things a bit better. I think your idea of talking to your boss's boss is a great one. Also to call out your boss a bit more on what he said, as other PPs have suggested.
Otherwise, don't change anything. You're making waves. How amazing is that?

So client ignored your advice and lost a lot of money. He tried to blame you. That strategy didn’t work as you had a record of the email with your advice. Client then says he did not take your advice as he lacked confidence in you.

How can your boss think this is any reflection on you? He is a very silly man who could do with some extremely simple unconscious bias training. Why did he not say, ‘Thank goodness, you have Getterfeck. As you’ll have seen, her judgement is spot on.’

It sounds like a good idea to talk to your bosses boss about presence. From your posts, I’d be very surprised if you didn’t have it already but this way you alert her to what your boss said without going down a the grievance route.

A few weeks ago, I heard a series of presentations. The one person who had everyone transfixed was a woman, large, and had a regional accent. I think your age may be a disadvantage in some people’s eyes but this, and any other stereotyped views, is their problem.

Hmmm, unfortunately there is a type of client who thinks that if you are fat you obviously can't manage your own life very well and therefore they can't trust you with managing their affairs - be it money, property, makeup or even looking after their kids.

The boss is possibly not wrong with his analysis but he is very unkind to give credence to it.

Playing devils advocate- could be have a point?

OP, you sound like you did a great job of correctly advising client, having a record of it and gracefully discussing how to move on from their self-imposes error. Client/your boss are unfairly still trying to lay blame at your door. Ignore. I’m pretty sure this little episode will have increased the client’s confidence in you. Also, continue to develop the relationship with your boss’s boss. It sounds as though she is awesome and has your boss’s measure! You also sound great and remind me of someone I work with northern, youngish, on the larger side who totally rocks at her job and is shooting up the career ladder deservedly. She is an incredible mentor, inspires huge confidence and loyalty through straight talking and good humour. I wish I was half as inspiring and memorable as she is. Don’t let your confidence be damaged by this.

Interesting to see who has focused on which aspects of OP could be a problem in terms of stereotyping. Research has shown any of these can create barriers at work:

(1) Age - both too ‘old’ or too ‘young’
(2) Regional accent - people with a Liverpool or Birmingham accent are particularly disadvantaged
(3) Weight discrimination - worse in, but not exclusive to, customer facing roles
(4) Gender/sex - women in occupations dominated by men are particularly disadvantaged.
(5) Being over qualified for the role - assumption that the person will leave as soon as they can or be unwilling to do certain tasks.

I’m just using the things reported by the OP, not other factors like ethnicity or disability where discrimination obviously also exists. Some posters mention several factors; others just one. I thought that was interesting. Sorry if I have derailed the thread, Getterfeck.

For some jobs weight, clothes, accent do matter though so perhaps getting your weight down to about 10 stone and losing the Northern accent and going to an expert on how to dress well to impress people might be a good idea or a life coach on how to engender gravitas.

Christ sake why not just tell OP to quit and let someone more aesthetically and audibly pleasing get the job.

Where the fuck did ten stone come from? The manual of acceptable body weights in business? And lose the accent? What would you suggest she does? Pretend she’s Jamaican? How about Irish? Or is RP the only accent allowed on business these days?

Of all the shite I read on MN this post @Xenia has probably pissed me off the most. What a load of bollocks you spout.

OP you be you, be the best you can be and don’t change unless you want to, not cos some inferior boss or moronic mn user says so.

Can't believe it, again. Why am I still shocked by Xenia posts!!

Can't believe it, again. Why am I still shocked by Xenia posts!!

Me too. Telling her she should lose weight and change her accent when the OP is the expert in her field, all because a client chose not to follow her instructions.