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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to call this out?

440 replies

harriethoyle · 12/08/2019 07:39

On a disgustingly early train to a work thing. Suited and booted as is everyone in my compartment. Everyone in my vicinity is a man.

The chap on the trolley called me love the first time he served me and darling the second time. He has called all of the men around me Sir, both times.

So, the second time, I said "are you aware that you have called me love and darling on the two occasions we've spoken but you are calling all of the men Sir?" At which point he stuttered a bit and apologised.

WIBU in calling out what I felt was total sexism - he didn't call any of the men love! Or am I just a grumpy moo because I've been up for hours and have a long and difficult day ahead and the poor man was just trying to be friendly?!

OP posts:
Bertieandernie · 12/08/2019 18:38

@cassilis yes I never understood that saying! You don’t know what someone else is going through the last thing they may want to do is smile. I’m quite a smiley person generally so if I’m not smiling there is obviously a reason

Bertieandernie · 12/08/2019 18:41

@HillRunner

That was a mistake on my part I didn’t read the previous message properly I do apologise Cake

Bertieandernie · 12/08/2019 18:44

I thought @M3lon said they called her male colleagues sir, dr or professer but her Miss but I misread it I’m sorry 😐

DarlingNikita · 12/08/2019 19:12

Try and use some emotional intelligence to look at why he might be using the words and his intentions

Why should she? Why shouldn't the man (who works in hospitality/service, after all) use HIS emotional intelligence to think about what his words might feel like to the recipient?

BarrenFieldofFucks · 12/08/2019 19:37

Actually, the most patronising here are actually those letting the employee off the hook because he won't have meant anything by it/is harmless/had kind intentions/had his feelings hurt etc. He's a fully grown male. I'm sure he is quite capable of taking a politely made point in the way in which it was intended and bearing it in mind in future.

Graphista · 12/08/2019 19:47

YANBU and well done for saying so to him.

"I think you should not have called it out. We should only call out actual sexism (words and actions that have contempt behind them)."

A - the op has given NO indication of tone

B - What is "actual sexism"?

C - words have meaning, we KNOW this, if the man had used a racially "endearing" word would you think it acceptable? If he's called the white men "sir" and the non white men "dude"?

People's perception is informed and shown by the words we use, it's part of rape culture - it doesn't START with the victims of even violent stranger rape being disbelieved but with catcalling & dick pics! And yes, everyday sexism reducing women to objects who only exist to pacify men.

And I agree not ONE of you who disagrees with op has given a sound reason for doing so, what you have done is displayed your own internalised misogyny and lack of awareness of insidious this behaviour is.

The attempts to align this with "regional differences" are quite honestly pathetic. It's NOT the same, I've lived all over the uk and am very familiar with the different terms of endearment BUT as has been pointed out clearly and repeatedly that's NOT what he did.

As pp I'm Scots "hen" "doll" etc in common usage BUT there ARE equivalents in level of formality for men "pal" "mate" "wee man" "big yin" etc

Here he CHOSE to use an informal term for op BECAUSE she is a woman and gave the men the respect of a formal address.

Even without the sexist aspect that's rude!

"Respect is mostly nonverbal context and cues." What utter tripe! So if someone ACTS respectful but refers to you as a twat they're still being respectful?! Come off it!

"but at the same time you embarrassed a man in front a a coach full of people" but embarrassing and offending girls and women PUBLICLY with such behaviour is fine?

"I think there is a time and place" please DO - you or any of the other apologists on the thread - explain when IS the right time and place to address such sexist attitudes and behaviour? If not when it actually happens?

"Not making excuses, just giving a possible explanation." Rubbish! You ARE making excuses - and being ageist to boot! My parents are in their 70's, my mother spent most of her working life in some kind of service role INCLUDING Training up others, my father was in the military - not exactly known for their liberal attitudes and THEY wouldn't do this and would recognise it as sexist! My ex in laws are older than my parents and my grandparents who would be well into their 90's now if alive and THEY wouldn't do this either. If ANYTHING They would be far more likely to address every customer formally as that's what was the norm in their working lives. Customers - ALL customers - were treated with respect.

IamtheDevilsavocado - excellent screenshot, YES words don't JUST express thought, they are what forms thought - which is what forms opinion and behaviours.

"the female equivalent is Madam or Miss, so it is age-based (why??? it's not for men!)" worse not just age but marital status! Women's marital status STILL affects forms of address which it never has for men!

"there is much worse behaviour directed at women over more then how to address them" and WHY does that behaviour occur?

"If this was in a professional setting, it’s a different matter" dear god! IT WAS in a professional setting - HIS - he was doing his job!

"he was presumably serving you coffee or similar and there was no intent to patronise or demean you." Has it occurred to anyone that he was doing this BECAUSE of his lower status role - even subconsciously?

"Massive leap from being called love to someone ejaculating on you!" Again - look at the thinking on rape culture. It does NOT occur in a vacuum!

"There is a massive difference to an employee thinking they are being friendly and illegal sexual assault." Go read the accounts by either victims or perpetrators of sexual assault where they knew each other very well, perhaps even in a relationship, where the perpetrators often thought it was a normal sexual interaction and come and tell us there's a massive difference!

Women being expected to placate men is at the heart of this debate, being expected to accept poorer treatment PURELY because we are women.

We even have posters over analysing how the complaint should have been made largely IGNORING the FACT it shouldn't have been necessary for a complaint to have been made in the first place if the man had behaved in a manner which treated both sexes equally.

Bertieandernie NO m3lon sounds like someone who has worked damn hard (probably had to work harder than the men!) to achieve her title and rightfully expects to be addressed correctly in her professional role! If they can remember to call the MEN dr or professor they are certainly capable of remembering to to call m3lon the same!

"Also a little bitter and jealous of women who attract men." What utter bollocks!

So the only women who can be feminists are ugly?! What a Fucking disgrace to womanhood you are! (If you are a woman, with that comment I have serious doubts!)

I've never had problems attracting men (or women)

My dd is one of the most stringent feminists I know! She's 18, very slim, stunningly gorgeous (is regularly approached to become a model and has actually done some modelling work for friends/relatives but has no interest in doing it full time) if ANYTHING It's the often unwanted attention she's had as an attractive girl/woman, particularly as she's also tall and so boys/men thought she was older so she's been getting the most appalling behaviour in her direction for some years. I've had occasions where I've eg been in town with her when she was say 13
and a grown ass man has made disgusting comments and we've said "she's only 13" they've then been suitably embarrassed but ACTUALLY the comments they made would have been offensive regardless of her age! But yes it's exactly that behaviour and experience that has made her so stringent!

"but I do think not being called miss or madam by a stranger on public transport is nothing compared to racism" why? Why is sexism less important than racism?

It's really embarrassing and worrying the level of misogyny displayed on this thread by what is likely to be other women! Possibly who are also raising children!

Bertieandernie · 12/08/2019 19:51

@Graphista lol ok calm down

Graphista · 12/08/2019 20:33

I'm perfectly calm thanks no need to be both condescending and patronising.

I just - Along with many others think this stuff does need to be addressed, is sexist and I'm saddened and disappointed at the attitudes of yourself and others that think respect for women and girls is unimportant and who continually make excuses for such behaviour.

It will never change if it's never addressed

ICouldBeSomebodyYouKnow · 12/08/2019 20:39

Thank you for the summary, Graphista.

MN has taught me a lot, but I despair of some people on here, I really do.

It's the DISPARITY that's the issue here folks!

Go back and read Graphista's post again.

harriethoyle · 12/08/2019 20:49

I confess, I've been quite surprised by some of the justifications on here and even more so about the outright bile from a handful of rather unpleasant posters but I guess that's AIBU for you. And having reflected on this throughout the day, I think I'd do the same again, because the disparity wasn't ok, however well intended or inadvertent it was. But it's genuinely been really interesting!

OP posts:
snapcrap · 12/08/2019 20:49

Ok so the people that keep saying the YABU faction don't get the DISPARITY, may be amazed to know that we do get the DISPARITY but we just don't think it's a big deal.

I'm nearly 50, I am a 'strong woman', work in a professional field, I care about women's rights, I don't care about being called love or darling. I just don't. And I do care about a bloke who meant no harm and was 'called out' for it.

harriethoyle · 12/08/2019 20:50

Exactly @Graphista Wine

OP posts:
Fontofnoknowledge · 12/08/2019 20:56

Doubt that a man serving coffee on a train has had the benefit of a tertiary education and to get why his understanding of friendliness has been construed as offensive - when no offence was meant.

Hey over yourselves and review things in context

Graphista · 12/08/2019 21:13

A tertiary education isn't required to understand the basics of respect and sexism!

How insulting & patronising to all those without that education!

BarrenFieldofFucks · 12/08/2019 21:18

That proves my earlier point exactly. Poor chap being so derided.

HillRunner · 12/08/2019 21:19

My dad left school with a couple of CSE's. He's in his 70s, and manages not to call women 'love'.

newmobile · 12/08/2019 21:19

Exactly @Fontofnoknowledge. ☕

NobleRot · 12/08/2019 21:49

It really is possible to refrain from using gendered forms of address which belittle women without having gone to university.

Fontofnoknowledge · 13/08/2019 01:23

Graphista - well it seems that fairly articulate members of MN struggle with it - as someone serving coffee on a train and calling me 'love' (an expression of friendliness in many of the regional vernaculars of the UK) is being neither 'sexist' nor 'offensive' .

Perhaps if he had asked me to get up and serve the coffee then you might have a point. Otherwise anyone complaining about normal speech from someone with no intent to offend , are joining the growing ranks of the professionally offended.

Graphista · 13/08/2019 02:01

When you resort to insults you've clearly lost the argument!

As has been repeatedly and in great detail explained this ISN'T about terms of endearment being offensive and sexist NOBODY has said that.

It's the fact he used terms of endearment with the only WOMAN there while CHOOSING To use a formal term of address for the MEN.

Yes its "low level" sexism but it IS still sexism and as such inexcusable.

As the pps equating to drink driving and rosa parks actions pointed out and myself and others wrt rape culture - if you accept the "little" discrepancies in behaviour it makes the bigger ones harder to challenge and change too.

Nothing will change unless we address as many examples of everyday sexism as we can.

But hey, if you think it's acceptable for girls and women to STILL be spoken to as if they are inferior in 2019, with the rise in more extreme examples of sexism like...oh rapists & murderers being able to use "she liked rough sex" as a defence, or victims of grooming gangs being dismissed as "troublemakers" by the very police supposed to protect them...clearly there's no problem!

Move along nothing to see here Hmm

Fontofnoknowledge · 13/08/2019 04:07

Gosh that sounds a ridiculously complicated way to live and coincide with other members of the public but then again... if it makes you happy. Crack on. I prefer to call people out when they have done something with intent.
Each to their own.

verystressedmum · 13/08/2019 04:19

I'd hate to be called madam or ma'am.
He's serving you tea how much more deferential do you need a person to be?

QueenoftheBiscuitTin · 13/08/2019 04:45

Being referred to as 'love' or 'darling' makes me cringe, whether it's by a man or a woman.
I wouldn't have said anything, but I understand where you're coming from.

Wtfdoipick · 13/08/2019 08:11

I prefer to call people out when they have done something with intent

The problem is that to make any real headway with sexism or racism the unconscious bias (which this is an example of) needs to be tackled, it's these everyday examples that pave the way for the next generation, as long as people are treating the sexes differently needlessly then people will believe subconsciously that there is a difference and that filters down the generations

PurpleRobe · 13/08/2019 08:22

I'm kind of on the fence. I can see your POV. @harriethoyle

If he's calling the males "sir" what equivalent would you have liked? I personally hate "ma'aaaam" ...unless it's a bery formal setting.

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