I'm appalled that parents ask their child to lie about term time holidays.

[Soontobe60]

I've seen many threads on MN where parents ask about taking their children on holiday during term time. Will it be authorised? Will they be fined? Does it count as exceptional circumstances? Should I just phone in sick? My big concern is that by phoning in sick, the parents are then expecting their child to lie about the holiday before they go away, and then again on their return to school. I can't say how these parents coach their dcs in the lying but I can imagine it's something along the lines of 'The headteacher is really mean and won't let you come on holiday so we need to keep it a secret. Mummy might get fined and that wouldn't be fair. Remember, don't tell anyone.'

The pressure that child is then put under is huge, from the moment the lie is concocted until well after the holiday is over. I just can't see why a parent would do that to their child. It's tantamount to abuse. So many times I've seen children try to lie to staff or other children about their holiday and it's awful. I know they're lying, I know their parents are lying.

What then happens when that same child tells their parent a lie about something they may have done, and their parent tells them lying is wrong? What they actually mean is it's ok to lie if it stops mummy or daddy getting into trouble.

If you want to save money by going on holiday in term time then own it! Budget for getting the fine whilst you're budgeting for the actual holiday. Tell the school well in advance, and accept that it will most probably be unauthorised and may incur a fine.

Please, just don't make your child lie for you.

At our school, if you are off for a few days either side of holidays and claim to be sick, you need to show medical evidence which sick note. This is a deterrent. If they don't care, they just pay the fine and be done with it. But at least the kid does not need to lie. No sick note means you were not sick.....

Tbh we have only done this once on a half day before end of term. I fully expect to be called a bad parent and that my DS is some kind of degenerate but, for DS having to have a cover story for the day off actually added to the excitement of the holiday.

I used to have term time holidays when I was young, my mum thought they were important and scrimped and saved on other things to afford it. I remember all my holidays, they were valuable life experiences, I learned to swim, about local history, literature and nature. We did cheap coach trips to Europe too, encouraging me to try other languages. My education didn’t suffer at all. I think it’s really sad that poor children today don’t have the same opportunities to travel that I had.

Also private schools start summer holidays earlier and are able to take advantage of the cheap deals, how is that in any way fair?

"There’s nothing moral about telling lies out of self-interest. Come on. Don’t gild the lily with the fine-sounding language about “fine-grained distinctions”. All you’re doing by teaching your kids to lie about holidays is teaching them that it’s okay to lie if it suits them."

Nope, I totally disagree. Last time I took the kids out we went to see a play about Charles Darwin, because we'd been given free tickets to a weekday matinee. We had a long discussion about evolution afterwards then spent two hours in the natural history museum. There was nothing self-interested about it, I'd drawn the conclusion that they'd learn more that day than whatever they were likely to do in school. I didn't ask permission because ridiculously, the school would not give it given current rules. There was nothing immoral about lying - nobody was hurt - indeed it would arguably have been more immoral to increase the school's unauthorised absence figures and get them pointlessly penalised by Ofsted. I agree with the comment above - rigid rule-following for the sake of it means a meaner, poorer, less interesting life. Learning to make fine-grained moral distinctions and not see the world in black and white isn't gilding the lily, it is one of my main goals in bringing up my kids!

You’re encouraging them to lie so they (you, really) can get your own way. This nonsense about moral distinctions is just a justification for teaching your kids to tell self-interested lies.

Teaching your kids to lie for your financial gain is grim. Dressing it up as teaching them "fine grained moral distinctions" is laughable.

No wonder so many schools have appalling behaviour problems when this is the sort of support they get from parents.

Jumping at the chance of a once-in-a-lifetime theatre trip is not 'getting your own way' - it's not grabbing the last bowl of ice-cream! We clearly come from entirely different universes. I'm very glad to live in mine.

Oh bollocks cohle. My kids wouldn't say boo to a goose at school and my dd just got top marks in her yr6 sats. Why do people come out with this nonsense?!

Obviously not everybody parents in the same way.

For me, being in school is a priority, and following school rules is a priority, and I do my best to make the rest of the time interesting and fun and educational. And if it means paying a fortune for holidays abroad, then that’s fine. And if it means having a holiday at home and going to free museums/libraries/galleries, then that’s fine too.

For @frogsoup and many others, teaching their kids to lie to teachers is a trade-off their willing to make.

I’d like to say that there are no right answers in parenting ...

they’re, not their, obviously

No sick note means you were not sick.....

How are people getting these sick notes for the odd few days of illness? Are your gps just sat around filling in forms for kids with colds in order that they can jump through bullshit hoops laid down by officious schools, this is just plain taking the piss when people are having to wait weeks to see a doctor.

Jumping at the chance of a once-in-a-lifetime theatre trip is not 'getting your own way’

Of course it is. Anyone with a scrap of real integrity might say ‘We’re taking you out of school for this, but we’re telling the truth about it.’

Really, you don't think parents telling their kids that school rules don't apply to them and that people who do follow rules lead mean, poor, uninteresting lives could have any impact on behaviour? Bollocks, as you so charmingly put it.

They didn't lie. Nothing was asked of them. They said nothing. And you don't 'teach children to lie' or 'not to lie'- even you know that morality isn't that simple, or you'll be telling me that you encourage your kids to tell auntie Mary that they can't stand her new dress when she asks them.

Really, you don't think parents telling their kids that school rules don't apply to them and that people who do follow rules lead mean, poor, uninteresting lives could have any impact on behaviour? Bollocks, as you so charmingly put it.

And yet my dd received a prize for being among only 20 in her year not to receive a single behaviour point this year.

Such hyperbole is ridiculous and I honestly do feel sorry for people who think like this and the people who have to deal with them.

They didn't lie. Nothing was asked of them. They said nothing. And you don't 'teach children to lie' or 'not to lie'- even you know that morality isn't that simple, or you'll be telling me that you encourage your kids to tell auntie Mary that they can't stand her new dress when she asks them.

I didn’t say just lying. I said self-interested lying. That’s not the same as lying to save someone’s feelings. And even if your children didn’t lie, you lied, yes? Do they know this?

Of course morality isn't simple. But teaching my children to be deceitful for my own financial gain isn't a grey area as far as I'm concerned.

"Lies of omission aren't lies" is not the relationship with honesty I want my children to have. That's especially true now my kids are teens.

It's perfectly possibly to prioritise school AND take a few days off to make sure you can holiday as a family too. How can you not see this? Such limited thinking. My children have never been late to school, not once in 8 years of being in school. Their attendance has never fallen below 95% and when it was that low it was because dd, who has autism, was really struggling in school and simply couldn't cope with going in some days. I really struggle to understand how people can limit themselves and their children's lives like this.

Take your kids out of school for a holiday if you want (although personally I think it's fairly disrespectful to their teachers). Just don't lie about it and encourage your children to do the same.

I will do what I want to that works for my family thank you

@CarolDanvers - apologies for my “limited thinking”. But I don’t understand your last post. Your children have never been late and their attendance is over 95% which is great. Was the 5% absence the family holiday or the days when she was struggling to cope? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make? If she’s struggling to cope due to autism of course I wouldn’t have a problem with taking her out of school on some days. I don’t think that counts as the same thing as a family holiday.

A friend used to do it a lot. Now her kids are at private school she never does. Just shows you value what you pay for...

This law is ludicrous. Schools don't own your kids

@ElleDubloo

You understand that attendance is year to year don't you? So one year it was 95% and that was a combination of two days off for a holiday and a few sick days where she couldn't manage.

I don't understand what you don't understand. I'm not making any particular point apart from her having good attendance; for those who are ranting about prioritising school. I'm pointing out that I do prioritise school hence general good attendance. Her attendance has never been less than 98% apart from one year when it was 95% and the explanation for that is she had autism not just that I didn't prioritise school and pulled her out for holidays every five minutes.

I honestly feel suffocated by some of your posts. I've never been more convinced that I am doing the right thing for my children by pulling them out occasionally to have great times and experiences. The thought of living life in a "holidays are a luxury not a necessity" frame of mind is so depressing to me. That you wouldn't take just a couple of days a year to just have a lovely time baffles me. Those days mean nothing in the grand scheme of things and over a lifetime of education.

Ok, first off, the times I've taken my kids out of school have always been for one-off experiences that they could not have had at any other time. Financial self-interest had nothing to do with it. I lied ultimately because it's easier all round. Unauthorised absence looks bad for the school and they have to send out ridiculous official letters after each instance. I'm not going to get fined for two days of unauthorised absence in seven years for kids who have between 98 and 100% attendance, so in reality unauthorised absence would have been no real skin off my nose. I also lied because the system is absurd and I refuse to buy into it.

If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but please don't do the self-righteous morally superior schtick about my 'self-interested lying' - I have thought out reasons for what I'm doing and I'm not some moral reprobate who is responsible for all bad behaviour in schools. Just listen to yourselves!