I'm appalled that parents ask their child to lie about term time holidays.

[Soontobe60]

I've seen many threads on MN where parents ask about taking their children on holiday during term time. Will it be authorised? Will they be fined? Does it count as exceptional circumstances? Should I just phone in sick? My big concern is that by phoning in sick, the parents are then expecting their child to lie about the holiday before they go away, and then again on their return to school. I can't say how these parents coach their dcs in the lying but I can imagine it's something along the lines of 'The headteacher is really mean and won't let you come on holiday so we need to keep it a secret. Mummy might get fined and that wouldn't be fair. Remember, don't tell anyone.'

The pressure that child is then put under is huge, from the moment the lie is concocted until well after the holiday is over. I just can't see why a parent would do that to their child. It's tantamount to abuse. So many times I've seen children try to lie to staff or other children about their holiday and it's awful. I know they're lying, I know their parents are lying.

What then happens when that same child tells their parent a lie about something they may have done, and their parent tells them lying is wrong? What they actually mean is it's ok to lie if it stops mummy or daddy getting into trouble.

If you want to save money by going on holiday in term time then own it! Budget for getting the fine whilst you're budgeting for the actual holiday. Tell the school well in advance, and accept that it will most probably be unauthorised and may incur a fine.

Please, just don't make your child lie for you.

But Carol how hard is it it to fill in a form?

You are easily amused OP.

Sorry, I began answering early, then had to deal with something and came back, so missed you're admittance that the word 'abuse' was over the top.

I actually think one issue is that Brexit takes up so much space at the moment, that issues like no term time holiday can't be raised again as easily. I hope in the future it'll be rethought as - in reality - it doesn't work. If we are regularly doing educational things as parents at home and our children do attend school as they should, then I agree with Whatsername7 that holidays can be beneficial. The government rules don't solve truancy or parents neglecting to bring young children to school, they just force people to make a choice between lying and getting a cheaper holiday or paying through the nose for a break at peak times.

If I remember correctly, the governments response to the last petition was to pass it off by saying 'talk to your local council about changing term dates' and most councils were unwilling to change, or gave schools a leeway of a day or so. They were also asked to stop allowing travel companies to charge extortionate prices during school holidays - to which they said they couldn't possible do that. (Surprise, surprise.) They made the whole thing a guise of 'reducing school absence' in terms of underprivileged children from families with parents who were not fulfilling parental duty by getting their children to school - but that is a social issue that needs tackling through parental support, available therapy, SS involvement etc, and not an issue barring term time holidays solves. I think it places more responsibility on Head Teachers with it's 'exceptional circumstances' idea, which is also unhelpful and doesn't improve the parent-teacher relationship if strictly followed. A shame all round, really.

If I chose not to disobey that policy when refused holiday, I would still be explaining to my children why I disagreed with it. Thinking about it, is it only England in the UK? Scotland, NI and Wales have different rules, don't they? I'll have to look into it as I've just moved!

It isn't hard. I'm just not going to have the conversation and mini lecture thanks

@CarolDanvers or have the chance to model honesty to your child?

Or alternatively, model how to deal with senseless bureaucratic idiocy in a way that will make their lives easier but no less full of integrity, rather than using rigid black and white thinking. There are many occasions when lying can be either morally neutral or indeed a positive virtue.

I think it’s shocking, too. If it’s okay for you to lie to their school, or to lie generally, that’s what you are telling your kids is acceptable.

Thanks @frogsoup you said it so much better than I could

This comment in particular made me chuckle. The leap you've made with me not agreeing with parents encouraging their child to lie to wiping a child's arse is totally bemusing me

There you go with the hyperbole again... I refuse to believe that you can't see any connection between comparing two trivial situations to child abuse.

Look, you exaggerated and you're embarrassed about it so you back tracked. That's fine, god knows we've all been there on internet forums, myself included. But surely you understand that for people who have actually suffered child abuse they are going to pull you up on it. Pretending not to understand what people are getting at doesn't help, it just makes it worse.

@CarolDanvers How would you feel if your kid grows into the type of adult who calls in sick to work in order to go on holiday / go shopping?

@frogsoup I guess I want my kids to grow up following rules, following laws, and doing the right thing! And I believe you should follow school rules if you choose to send your kids to the school! LOL.

The value of:
- Teaching your child to respect their education
- Teaching your child not to lie
- Setting an example to your child to not lie

FAR outweighs the value of a holiday

Very well said

I just paid the fine.

School staff often ask children if they’re feeling better if they’ve been off sick - especially if it’s been several days.

@TwistyTop
Look, you exaggerated and you're embarrassed about it so you back tracked. That's fine, god knows we've all been there on internet forums, myself included. But surely you understand that for people who have actually suffered child abuse they are going to pull you up on it. Pretending not to understand what people are getting at doesn't help, it just makes it worse.

No idea what you're going on about! Yes, I did backtrack, but not through embarrassment. If I had been embarrassed I probably wouldn't have responded at all. But your last sentence? Where has that come from? Where have I 'pretended to not understand what people are getting at'? Many PPS have made assumptions about me on this thread, you included. And FYI, one of the alarm bells when it comes to emotional abuse is where a parent actively encourages a child to lie for them to hide information. And yes, before you have yet another incomprehensible dig at me, a one off incident wouldn't be a trigger, but does set a precedent.

I do find it disconcerting that people who have said they work in schools have admitted they would encourage parents to say their child was sick rather than having an unauthorised absence. How emotionally intelligent is that???

"How would you feel if your kid grows into the type of adult who calls in sick to work in order to go on holiday / go shopping?"

I'll hope that they grow into an adult with a strong moral compass and able to make fine-grained distinctions between what kind of behaviour is and isn't acceptable, rather than rigidly following nonsensical rules. I would not call in sick to work to go on holiday because that's a superficially similar but morally entirely different proposition to what we are discussing here. This 'slippery slope' approach to morality in which one perfectly moral act is somehow felt to lead inexorably to an immoral one being acceptable is not one which I recognise myself, and my children are intelligent beings so I don't expect they are likely to either.

@frogsoup OK sure, if you’re comfortable with that...

As a teacher I pretend not to notice if a normally well-attending child returns from illness with a suspect tan. I certainly wouldn't update the register. Why? What difference does the reason for absence make to the school?

What is far more detrimental to attainment is when a child is off every couple of weeks due to colds and minor ailings.

Comfortable with what? With my kids knowing that a day off school is not the same as pulling a sickie at work, because they are entirely different moral situations? Yes, entirely comfortable.

I am a teacher and couldn’t give a toss. It’s not my rules.

Frankly, going on holiday in a caravan with grandma mid-June was the only chance most of the kids at my school had at going on holiday at all as it was the only time they could afford it.

Kids that continually miss Mondays because mum was pissed the night before and they phone in with a different excuse each week is far worse.

@frogsoup That’s fair enough. Honestly, different people have different priorities. Just wondering out of curiosity though, can you pin down why you feel it’s less important to attend school than to attend work?

Ok, I admit I haven't RTFT but I work in a school office and part of my job is inputting holidays and illnesses onto the electronic register. The info I put on is seen by the class teacher when they do their register. (My 11-year-old informs me that in his class in a different school it goes up on the electronic whiteboard as the teacher does the register and the entire class can see the comments - but that's a different thread) So if little Johnny's mum calls up and says he's unwell, I put a comment on his date entry on the register and the attendance code (I) and when the teacher opens the register they will see it and say, oh dear Johnny's not in as he's unwell, and all his mates will say, but Johnny said he was off to Spain!

I've lost count of the number of times a teacher has told us something different to what the parent has said. Obviously, the lying parents don't give a toss what the school staff think about them but don't put your kids in an awkward situation.

Honestly own your truth and tell the school you are taking time off. They will roll their eyes then tell you to have a lovely time.

And I speak as someone who has taken their child out of school for a cheaper flight, and also for proper educational stuff like museum events and would do again, and I despair at the current situation with term-time holidays. But I know if headteachers could authorise up to 2 weeks like they used to do back in the 80s some parents would add this on to their existing absence levels.

How would you feel if your kid grows into the type of adult who calls in sick to work in order to go on holiday / go shopping?

They're autistic and staunch rule keepers, so most unlikely . And even if they weren't I would prefer a child who was a free thinker and did take the occasional day off and give themselves a break when they needed to rather than trudge in day after day after day.

My Dad was a very strict disciplinarian. He was in the army and he and my Mum ran our home along those lines. I never had a day off school my whole school life even when sick as pushing on was "character building", yes really. I didn't know what to do with myself after I left home and took any opportunity to take days off as I couldn't actually believe it was down to me to decide.

You think you are instilling good values into your children by never taking holidays because you can't afford them in holiday time and they're a luxury that not everyone needs etc. Personally I think you're instilling joylessness and pathological caution into your children and preventing them from seeing and reaching for more in life. There's a balance and personally with my children having attendance of 98% at school and three days off to go on a fab holiday, I think we have found a good balance. I'd hate some of your joyless lives and don't want that for my children. You might be happy to remain where more well off people put you but I am not

I'll hope that they grow into an adult with a strong moral compass and able to make fine-grained distinctions between what kind of behaviour is and isn't acceptable, rather than rigidly following nonsensical rules.

There’s nothing moral about telling lies out of self-interest. Come on. Don’t gild the lily with the fine-sounding language about “fine-grained distinctions”. All you’re doing by teaching your kids to lie about holidays is teaching them that it’s okay to lie if it suits them.

As a teacher I pretend not to notice if a normally well-attending child returns from illness with a suspect tan. I certainly wouldn't update the register. Why? What difference does the reason for absence make to the school?

In our school it’s not the teacher’s job to update attendance marks - that’s the job of the head teacher and me (family support worker).

We need accurate reasons for absence because we are monitored by the local authority who in turn are monitored by the DfE through Ofsted inspections.

I took DD7 out of school for 4 days this year, the only 4 days left of school before she took her Y2 SATs actually.

I didn't lie to the school, I told them in plenty of time and they refused permission but I took her anyway. Never expected her to lie, in fact we came back with gifts for her teacher and the TA for her class.

Never got a fine, her attendance is otherwise good, and she passed her exams with flying colours - I even asked her teacher for work we could take with us

I'll probably do it again next year to be honest, it hasn't affected her school results so why not?