I'm appalled that parents ask their child to lie about term time holidays.

[Soontobe60]

I've seen many threads on MN where parents ask about taking their children on holiday during term time. Will it be authorised? Will they be fined? Does it count as exceptional circumstances? Should I just phone in sick? My big concern is that by phoning in sick, the parents are then expecting their child to lie about the holiday before they go away, and then again on their return to school. I can't say how these parents coach their dcs in the lying but I can imagine it's something along the lines of 'The headteacher is really mean and won't let you come on holiday so we need to keep it a secret. Mummy might get fined and that wouldn't be fair. Remember, don't tell anyone.'

The pressure that child is then put under is huge, from the moment the lie is concocted until well after the holiday is over. I just can't see why a parent would do that to their child. It's tantamount to abuse. So many times I've seen children try to lie to staff or other children about their holiday and it's awful. I know they're lying, I know their parents are lying.

What then happens when that same child tells their parent a lie about something they may have done, and their parent tells them lying is wrong? What they actually mean is it's ok to lie if it stops mummy or daddy getting into trouble.

If you want to save money by going on holiday in term time then own it! Budget for getting the fine whilst you're budgeting for the actual holiday. Tell the school well in advance, and accept that it will most probably be unauthorised and may incur a fine.

Please, just don't make your child lie for you.

I've known school staff suggest parents lie.

Yep. My friend requested a day out of school in order for her reception aged son to attend my wedding (which is arguably an educational experience in itself, anyway). She was told by the school office that it would almost certainly be refused, but 'oh, it would be such a shame if he came down with a tummy bug that day'...

My parents took me out of secondary school in order to visit the millennium dome and it was approved as an 'educational experience'. I feel that was a sensible approach!

I don’t know how you’d get kids to lie. They’re very honest, aren’t they.
My dsis took my nephews to Disneyland the Christmas before last. She just told the school the truth. There was no other option really as my nephew would have just gone in talking about it anyway.
The HT didn’t authorise it, as legally she couldn’t, but. I think they quietly just turned a blind eye, as DN has an excellent attendance (aside from that).
However My sister did say. She wasn’t bothered about getting a fine. It’s cheaper that way than to actually pay hundreds extra to go in term time. I think most parents think that way.
She’s had no fine as of yet and it was almost 2 years ago.

I’m a teacher.

I couldn’t care less if someone else’s kid goes away on holiday.

This year we have had some very generous grandparents. In fact all the children who went in my class this year had grandparents who booked as a family surprise but didn't know the holiday dates. I wasn't born yesterday....

For me it is the lack of respect that is shows in lying. Just tell the truth and own it.

I think a lot if not most teachers think the same, Hashtag.
It’s not you that makes the rules, is it. You just have to keep them

This ruling came in when dd went to secondary school - so glad it didn’t happen earlier. Each time we took her out I would ask her teacher if there was anything that they wanted us to do if we were having some down time. Each time the response was no you are on holiday, just enjoy it. They wanted to ensure that the mental health of my dd and myself was kept, and knew that even on holiday children have learning experiences - social skills learning, geography, nature and science, history and culture (even if it’s just a few days by a pool I bet they will experience some of these).
And yes, dd has been at the top of her game, it has been at no detriment to her. Her father and I had always said that at secondary school term time holidays would stop - it would be harder to catch up all the work and contrary to a previous poster her grammar school clamped down hard on holidays in term time - it wasn’t worth going there - so I made sure she still had a break each year even if I couldn’t afford to go (school trips and guide camp breaks were a godsend for a couple of years and also gave me breathing space to save for the following year), but I think it was no coincidence that during that time I had a break down and ended up off work for 6 weeks, people may say holidays are a luxury but for me it really is time to get away from the usual high day to day stresses.
I really feel for the parents today who have to go through this in order to afford to have a break. There’s far more to this than the basic question asked by the OP - holidays aren’t just a ‘jolly’ - they help press the reset button, and sometimes we have to appreciate that there are other things just as important as one week away from the education system.

My dc are usually sick on the last day before may holiday. Ds1 was ill, now both of them get d&v, oh dear.... they would be sad to miss the last day of term, no work gets done, fun and games, they usually have a talent contest or similar, very educational.

Anyhoo. I dont tell them we are going on holiday friday. I just say Saturday. No lying on their part. School know whats going on but dont care. After the break no one is totting up when they started their holiday. Its not even mentioned.

But yes, abuse. For taking my kids to Italy or other terrible punishment.

That’s the one thing that does annoy me fos tbh is when parents want work.

NO!

Realistically, ask a child to lie by omission/keep a secret about going on a holiday is not abuse. Telling a child to keep the secret they are being inappropriately touched is abusive, telling them to not tell that a parent is addicted to drugs and neglecting them due to this addiction is (not technically abuse, but really neglect) but emotionally destructive and ultimately leads to further neglect and trauma. Witnessing children (and adults) asked to keep these sorts of secrets is very different and I don't think it should be compared. It undermines what real trauma is, and this comes from someone who was traumatised as a child and has witnessed children in these situations as an adult. Please don't use such dramatic language, it's unhelpful and untrue. The children being taken on holiday are in stable loving homes, not abusive homes. If this 'secret' causes upset, the difference is the parents usually respond in an emotionally appropriate way and take the responsibility from the child/alleviate the worry, if it was there in the first place.

As for the situation at hand, it is really dependent on the views of the parent and (realistically) whether they can afford school holiday prices - if they can't, then that's a tricky decision. The HT at a school may not be allowing anyone to go on holiday in term time, even if that child is above target in all subjects and in all other days of the year. Respecting education is very important, but a holiday once a year doesn't stop them respecting it. Respecting the law/obeying rules is also important, but much more complex than a simple right/wrong. It's an insensible rule to me, but I don't know if I'd personally take my children on holiday outside of holiday time as it hasn't come to that yet. I think I'd assume I would if I had to, providing he was achieving well. I still don't see what benefit the rule of no holidays in term time has, and I'm not sure I ever will.

Tantamount to abuse? Seriously?

Let me guess - you're one of those parents who wipes their 6 year old's arse for them because they just get so gosh darned upset if you don't, and trying to teach them to do it themselves is abuse.

I don't think being high achieving and being lucky enough never to be ill should be reasons for allowing one child a holiday and another child not.

I guess I can see where the op is coming from broadly speaking but sadly this is often the only way many can afford a holiday.

I didn’t tend to take mine out, I think we did it only once and with school permission.

But it rather grated when school would go on about the necessity to fully attend and then spend the last week of term faffing about with downtime activities.

I haven't seen any children get upset about it at school. Normally what happens is the child dutifully doesn't mention anything then during the register when they aren't there their friends call out that they've gone to such and such. Top tip, tell your children not to tell their friends!

"I think a lot of parents think school staff are stupid and won’t work it out."

I agree. If I was a teacher I think I would feel insulted by parents who thought I was stupid enough to believe their lies. We took DD out of school a few times - when she was in years 1, 3 and 4. This was before the current rules though. We were always honest about it.

I would never and did never take her out of school once she reached secondary education. She was the sort of child who hated missing work that meant she needed to catch up on it. The school took the view that it was up to the students to find ways to catch up on their work, and DD didn't have many friends who were prepared to help her out.

BTW her secondary school never had a "wind down" week at the end of term. Work continued full tilt until the penultimate day. The last day was usually a non uniform day with loads of fun stuff to do.

When the education system starts taking parental responsibility for my son they can make the decisions but until then as his mum I will decide within reason when we as a family go on holiday. We are all busy and dont get enough time to spend together. Prices hike up too much for most people to afford during school holidays so I totally don't blame parents for doing this. If there are significant attendance issues fair enough but actually our children are suffering from anxiety and depression in infant school. We don't consider the benefits of a holiday to their mental health or even the educational benefits that can come from a holiday.

Of course it’s not abuse. What would be more traumatic for a child is if their parents couldn’t afford a holiday ever whilst all their peers go away every year. Experiences are important for children as much as school is. If schools didn’t have ridiculous rules in place which let’s be honest is more about their own personal agenda of attendance figures then maybe parents wouldn’t have to lie in order to avoid a fine. Schools are way too controlling and push their own agenda too often.

@SinisterBumFacedCat
*Sorry but some people really can’t afford holidays unless they are in term time.

Do poor children going on holiday offend you as much OP?*

You clearly didn't read my op thoroughly. Nowhere does it say that I don't agree with term time only holidays. My post is about parents expecting their child to lie. If you're going to be insulting, at least get your facts right.

I can’t believe some posters think that holidays are essential for children’s mental health

Maybe I’m old fashioned. But I’d rather teach my child to take their education seriously, to enjoy their work, to not lie, to not pull sickies (this is really important for their work ethic even into adulthood), and to not envy other people.

“Oh she’ll get depressed and anxious if she sees her friends going to Disneyland” - PFF! Ridiculous. She needs better parents.

Children are able to work out that off sick means different things to different people anyway. You might have to struggle in with a cold if your parents are busy or you might not if they feel sorry for you.

I absolutely deplore the idea that anyone is taught “ rules are rules”. That’s so wrong on many levels.

I have taken DS out in term time for 3 days for a holiday. I'd never lie and say he was sick though. I told the school the truth!

I really don't think holidays are essentials though, they're a luxury. I wouldn't go in term time again. And I say that as a single mum on a low wage.

Having just read through all the responses I'm finding it hilarious how many of you clearly have not understood what I originally wrote, which was about parents getting their children to lie about going on holiday.

You also haven't bothered reading my updates. I did actually agree that maybe using the term 'abuse ' was OTT.

I also stated that I don't agree with the rules about holidays in term time. The conclusions some of you make are hilarious.
@TwistyTop
Let me guess - you're one of those parents who wipes their 6 year old's arse for them because they just get so gosh darned upset if you don't, and trying to teach them to do it themselves is abuse
This comment in particular made me chuckle. The leap you've made with me not agreeing with parents encouraging their child to lie to wiping a child's arse is totally bemusing me.

@WillowPeach
The rules are not made by the school, they are government rules interpreted and upheld by the Local Authority. Schools are expected to work within those rules, whether they agree with them or not.

YANBU at all.
However some of these responses want to dress it up, asking your child to lie is definitely not ok .

Holidays are good for children, and the family as a unit. The old system where heads were allowed to authorise 10 days was much, much fairer. Its important that parents and kids spend time together away from the daily grind. I tend to join in with the subterfuge. Unless its an exam year most pupils can catch up. Our head teacher discourages our AIO from digging too much amd just accepts the answer parents give. As a head of year, I regularly advise parents we can't authorise absence but 'what a shame if he/she was ill that day'. There is so much more to life.

"I think a lot of parents think school staff are stupid and won’t work it out."

I don't care if school staff work it out. I'd expect they probably would. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I just want to take my child on an affordable holiday without too much hassle. I couldn't care less what school staff think about it.