To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

Selfish wasn't an insult. You've posted repeatedly, even bolding an I to make your point, that you thought of you and what you wanted.

That's a statement of fact, not an insult.

I asked you for a study, politely and respectfully, twice.

From the fact it's not forthcoming I'm going to assume it's not real, or written by brexiteers.

As I said, you had the right (as we all do) to vote as you chose.

With rights come responsibilities, and one of those is to recognise that your choices can and do affect others.

I recognise that voting to remain meant a lot of people with grievances with the EU would be unhappy in the event of a remain victory.

It wouldn't have pushed people further into poverty and denied many social care or medication that they need.

I'm trying very hard to be calm and to state facts rather than emotions, but given that I see the faces of the vulnerable adults it has and will continue to affect on a daily basis, it's getting harder to stay calm.

Do I think you should be called names?

No, absolutely not. As I said upthread.

Do I think you're unwilling to be honest about the reality?

Absolutely. You can be cushioned from the reality, how lovely for you.

Many can't be, and it's your unwillingness or lack of empathy towards them that I find incredibly difficult to deal with.

I think many people voted for Brexit while fully understanding the economic implications.

There is a strong argument for Brexit hingeing on sovereignty, democratic accountability, border control etc.

I say this as a remainer.

I do empathise with those that may be impacted from Brexit (and again, we disagree on what that impact will be).
And ok, yes that means I am selfish in this respect because I voted for what would benefit me and my family. But as the pp said, voting is a selfish act. You have to choose which option is better for you.

The problem with Brexit discussions are that they are emotive and both sides end up frustrated with the other which inevitably turns them nasty.

I see your point of view, but I don't agree with it as it is not my point of view. My discussion with @CitadelsofScience about circumstances is valid here.

Damn now I'm late for my meeting! Signing off now promise!

I think that we need to drastically reduce immigration and start having more children otherwise the children and grandchildren of the majority people reading this post will be a minority in their ancestral homeland.

These aren't the ravings of xenophobe this is fairly mainstream hypotheses based on currently and likely future demographic trends.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10032296/White-Britons-will-be-minority-by-2066-says-professor.html

www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/03/race.world1

Now I appreciate that most people reading this will think I'm an idiot and a racist and I've doomed my family and the nation to penury. They will also say so what if we become a minority what does it matter what someone race and religion is. I also accept that they may be right. The EU may resolve its current problems and we could be begging them to let us back in 20 years.

To those who disagree with me I would say "what if your wrong". No people in history have ever voluntarily become minority's in their homelands (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Bluntly what's the worst thing that can happen to a minority because no one going to give us a new country if things go wrong. Once you become a minority you then at the mercy of the majority.

Problem is nesssie your idea of what's best for you and your family is ridiculously short-sighted. Do you really think you'll be better off living in an impoverished society riven with discord between the haves and have-nots?

I think asking “if you knew” is wrong thing.

So many people have said “of course I’d take a financial hit because I believe in it” But I find those are people who won’t and never would be hit financially.

What I’d like to know is, those who are taking a hit (or probably will) do you still believe Brexit will be worth it, given there isn’t likely to be a significant financial benefit at the end. Are the reasons you voted for it going to be what you thought and if you’ve lost your job/lowered income etc, is that worth it?

It just seems people are happy to see others lose out for the “greater good” but can’t actually pinpoint what that good is, other than a theoretical benefit where Britain isn’t part of the EU.

A minority in their own country?

Lots of people in minority groups were born in the UK.

A minority of what? British people? White people? What makes them a minority?

It seems Leavers fall into 2 camps

• those who are rich enough not to care because it won’t affect them and they aren’t at all concerned about those who it might affect

• those who simply don’t want to believe there will be any negative finial impact

Males are in a minority in the British population. Doesn't seem to do them much harm by and large.

I think that we need to drastically reduce immigration and start having more children otherwise the children and grandchildren of the majority people reading this post will be a minority in their ancestral homeland.

You mean White Britons will become a minority?

Can you explain why you think this might cause a problem? What issues might arise?

I think that we need to drastically reduce immigration and start having more children otherwise the children and grandchildren of the majority people reading this post will be a minority in their ancestral homeland.

OMFG

So this really is about maintaining a ‘pure’ race for some people.

I know Brexit was really about immigration but I’m still horrified at how bigoted some people are.

I personally think the last two years of embarrassing, damaging failure has ably demonstrated that the UK really isn't a particularly 'strong country', and the damage done to the pound and already evident in several industries rather backs this up. We don't need to speculate on the future, the damage is already being done.

The argument about having more children blows the argument that you want to reduce migration because immigrants are a drain on resources out of the water doesn’t it.

You just want more white British people

It’s disgusting,

The truth is none of us can say what it will be like once we leave the EU, we can only have a guess and say what we think may happen. Everybody had their own reasons for voting to leave or to remain. I am reliant on medication so could be badly affected when we leave, but I will worry about that if a shortage happens. There is no point worrying about it now.

living in an impoverished society riven with discord between the haves and have-nots?
That's the society we already live in. The issue is that a lot of people could pretend it wasn't the case but Britain was always divided into haves and have-nots, and that disparity has only grown.
I work in areas where the life expectancy is worse than parts of Africa.
Bear from the people I work with, I'd say there is a third camp. People who voted Leave, who thought they'd be disadvantaged by Brexit but thought it was worth that for the possibility of a different approach, of a redistribution, etc, that would benefit their future generations.
And also a fourth camp, who thought their lives couldn't be any worse because they're already living below the poverty level, they're third generation unemployed, and their life expectancy is 30 years below that of the people in Westminster, London.
And I think they're right. Brexit isn't going to make their lives worse.

No people in history have ever voluntarily become minority's in their homelands (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Bluntly what's the worst thing that can happen to a minority because no one going to give us a new country if things go wrong. Once you become a minority you then at the mercy of the majority.

You suck it up, buttercup, and don't make a fuss or try to change the outcome because their side won and your side lost.
HTH

gghhh if you think that your response makes you not look like a xenophobic racist then you are deluded...

I think that we need to drastically reduce immigration and start having more children otherwise the children and grandchildren of the majority people reading this post will be a minority in their ancestral homeland.

This country has a rich history.

Once upon a time we had Celts, Saxons, Normans, Vikings and Romans who dominated.

How's that worked out for us?

The idea of this 'ancestral homeland' as some kind of puritan oasis is such utter nonsense its funny. Well it would be, if it wasn't taken so seriously and sincerely.

This country is Britain precisely because of invasion and immigration and being a cultural melting pot. A lot of that comes down to us also being an island nation where seafarers could visit with relative ease before the invention of modern forms of transport and transport networks.

The idea that outsiders moving here is bad is regressive and just plain wrong as soon as you put it into any meaningful historical context.

Unless all those immigration waves were OK because they featured the 'right kind' of immigrant. Whatever 'the right kind' is.

Can you explain what your 'ancestral heritage' actually is? I've studied my family history extensively. It's fascinating. And how it's changed is very much part of its richness. I'm glad it's not just every generation being exactly the same as the one before with someone's destiny laid out by the lottery of their birth alone.

Remainer but know a lot of Leavers.

They are actually better off now than before the referendum.

I do think if we had remained though we were heading for a huge drop.

Things were getting over heated.

and the damage done to the pound One person’s damage is another persons advantage. Exports and tourism have benefited from a lower pound. It’s never all one way is it?

LilithsFamiliar

Agree

This 'minority' thing. I'm a redhead - minority. A writer - minority. A non-driver - possibly a minority, who knows? Don't drink much alcohol - feels like a minority sometimes!
But suddenly because it's skin colour it means something? Or something to do with 'ancestry', whatever that is? This makes it a bad thing? All categories are based on thought and construct as far as I can see - I literally don't care if I become another kind of minority. What I care about is that every person on the planet gets the best of opportunities, no matter who, or where they are, and what special characteristics they have. So the idea that immigration will shift the demographic and make me a minority group is one that simply makes me shrug my shoulders, because the task in hand is still the same - fairness for all.

My ancestral homeland is called 'earth', by the way. Not a bit of it that someone likes to call 'England.

What’s the ‘Are Tommie* brigade a pp refers to? Is she saying northerners are thick?

That's the society we already live in

I know. I reeeeaaalllllly don't think Brexit is going to improve things though.