To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

Fucking hell MorningRichie (or should that be MoaningRichie?) you sound hateful and spiteful. Life must be such a chore with that horrible attitude. Get a grip, there's a dear.

Personally, I think having a prosperous, egalitarian society in which other people's children aren't brought up in poverty is the biggest benefit to me and my family.

Bloody hell @MorningRichie
You know you could put your point forward normally like others? I am not even in a leave camp but your comments are ridiculous and I agree with pp that it should either be deleted or you should be banned by @MNHQ

put it perfectly, voting is inherently a selfish act - you have to vote for what you believe will benefit you/your family/future.

Fair enough.

It is, after all navel gazing that has brought us to here after all.

Will you recognise that your right to vote selfishly (which everyone apparently has) will directly and, in some cases, catastrophically affect others?

Personally, I think having a prosperous, egalitarian society in which other people's children aren't brought up in poverty is the biggest benefit to me and my family.

I know a lot of Marxists and Lexiters. I've fallen back on hoping their analysis was correct.

For some bizarre reason my phone felt I needed an extra "after all" in my last post.

Unfortunately its people like MorningRichie that mean the threads asking Leavers why they voted that way are rarely answered.
Not because we don't have the answer etc but most people don't want to be called vermin/racist/thick/have death wished on our families/children etc.

I'm not wearing an EDL t-shirt, waving a St Georges Flag. I'm sitting in my office not working wearing a normal dress suit, just trying to explain why I voted my way. I have thick skin so those comments don't really affect me, but I don't think I deserve them (although others obviously agree).

There are many studies all predicting different outcomes, some state poverty, some state that there won't be much change

Please link to the studies saying there won't be much change, particularly in the event of a hard Brexit or no deal Brexit.

I've not seen or heard of any, but I'm open to reading them.

Incidentally, how can there be "not much change" when the borders can't be closed due to NI and Ireland being attached to each other, and the prospect of a hard border would be horrendous.

That doesn't strike me as "not much change".

And here is the crux of the issue. Rich people don’t give a fuck what happens to humans that inhabit their country, because as long as their finances stay up they’re fine! There’s a lot to say about right-wing voters/politicians but I don’t want to go on a massive rant.

Brexit is going to hit this country hard in terms of financial losses. We’re already seeing that in massive job losses up and down the country due to businesses failing or moving elsewhere. And it’s not the rich that are suffering, it’s the working class people. And even some of them voted for this. Utterly ridiculous.

Unless Brexit is stopped once and for all future generations don’t have a hope in hell. I am comfortable and don’t have money worries, but I give a shit about the humans around me and so I don’t want people to suffer unnecessarily because of a vote that was built on lies and deceit. And now we’ve got BoJo to contend with.

We have limits to immigration that we don't use. A lot of what people blame the EU for in this country is the fault of our own government.

This a million times. Governments of all colours have used the EU as a scapegoat for all manner of unpopular policies they personally wanted to enact or used it as an excuse as to why they couldn't do something knowing full that the EU wasn't the reason just a convenient way to deflect the backlash from themselves. Then they wondered why there was a growing dissatisfaction with the EU within the UK and were surprised that people voted to leave when given the option.

OP Do you wish you hadnt started this thread reading the comments you are getting?

My area of work (young adult social care for young adults with disabilities) WILL be affected by Brexit. Funding has already been cut, and will be cut further to pay for this ridiculousness.

In real terms, service users won't be able to access support.

It all sounds nice and fluffy with euphemisms and projections of improvement doesn't it?

Not so nice when the reality is people with profound and permanent disabilities not being able to accept support they deserve and ultimately need.

@InTheHeatofLisbon No, I don't think there will be a catastrophic affect from Brexit. There will be an effect yes. But no one has given me an independent study that confirms this (and please don't try and link any now). As discussed up thread, there are studies showing both outcomes, and both have their own biases.

Tbh @MorningRichie since you can easily afford £150 a month for 2 phones, amongst other things, you are not as bad off as you are making out...
And yes. I searched your user name.

Generally speaking leavers we're more likely to be motivated by cultural rather than economic considerations, whereas the economy was far more important to Remainers.

Part of this is explained by the age divide where older voter who are more financially secure and have fewer work years left have less of a worry about the economy anyway.

Thus for them cultural change is the thing they want and is their priority and they are less financially exposed to risk in the first place.

Remainers find it hard to understand the priority given to culture versus economics for this reason.

Remainers do have cultural considerations and reasons for wanting to stay in the EU too but the main argument they use to stay in the EU has always been the economic rather than the cultural one.

Indeed I do think that this weakened the remain argument at the time because the remain was being promoted by the then chancellor Osborne which rather undermined the economic argument as he personally wasn't trusted by a lot of people.

Which feeds into the send part of why the economic argument didn't and doesn't work.

The idea of economic hardship didn't connect with 'left behind types' because they were of the opinion it couldn't get any worse than having nothing to begin with, so they had nothing to lose in the first place. Thus they wanted to show two fingers to the Tory government and two fingers to Remainers who were of working age, were comfortable and always had good opportunities in life due to access to education, at what they regard as, the left behinds expense.

None of this has particularly changed since the ref and indeed these socio-economic divisions have only really become wider and a cultural war has developed in which no one is prepared to really face up to the inadequacies in society that 'their own side' doesn't really want to face up to and admit.

The ref basically played into all the cracks and fractures in society by highlighting problems but no one really wants to admit these problems and do anything about them because there is cultural / economic / political cost in doing so.

I am quite happy for other people to be less well off in order for the UK to leave the EU. Luckily that's exactly what looks like happening.

The only thing is I voted Remain ... it's a funny old world.

@InTheHeatofLisbon and yet my area of work, may actually benefit from Brexit. So again, it all comes down to different circumstances.

I have to go now for a bit, but will try and pop back and answer any (non rude) questions. I would like to state that I don't speak for all Leave voters, but I seem to be the only one here at the moment so am trying to give my view.
It may be coming across like it due to my vote and I know this is an emotive subject, but I am not a selfish person, I am not racist, and I'm not thick.
I voted the way that would benefit me and my family/future. I accept everyone has the right to vote whichever way they want.

But no one has given me an independent study that confirms this (and please don't try and link any now)

Shut up remainer. Heard loud and clear.

For the record, I didn't name call and I deliberately wasn't offensive or personal.

I didn't say I was posting a link to anything. I asked you to post a link to a credible study that everything would be fine in the event of a hard or no deal Brexit.

You voted how you wanted, and now don't want to hear the reality of it.

The reality is social care not working, it's palliative care drugs being limited or not used at all, it's job losses, rising living costs and stagnation in wages. Housing being unavailable or unaffordable.

So again, I politely ask for a credible study that proves all the experts wrong so far.

Interesting that it didn’t get past the first page before the thick brexiteers line came out!

Staying in or leaving creates an uncertain future. Even if the referendum had not happened the direction of and our relationship with the EU in 10 years time would undoubtedly be very different to what it is now, whether this would be for better or for worse is just as unpredictable as leaving the EU.

I think the majority of people voting leave are more in tune with the notion of short term pain for long term gain than the immediate gratification mentality of the last 20 odd years. So I suspect that the majority of people who did vote leave would be quite realistic about the short term pain for long term gain. Any change throughout history shows that there’s alwayspain in a change but usually long term things work out

I don't think you're racist or thick. I absolutely disagree (and indeed your own posts disagree!) about selfish.

Very true @RedToothBrush

We have limits to immigration that we don't use. A lot of what people blame the EU for in this country is the fault of our own government.
Please expand on what you think these are.

@InTheHeatofLisbon I never said or thought you were rude, which is why I tried to answer your questions as honestly as I could. I do not mind explaining myself to people like you, as you were not insulting or rude (except perhaps in this last post) and just asked reasonable questions. Many Brexit threads descend into name calling as neither side can accept that the other won't change their mind or admit defeat.

I asked not to link to studies as I probably would have read them before, and if I hadn't, I unfortunately don't have time now. If you had posted them and I hadn't responded, people may have taken that to mean ignorance/denial.

Anyone else got a huge advert for immigration solicitors on the right now?

To make the point that it's definitely not clear that there will be a negative impact. Jesus.

To make the point that some strongly entrenched pro-Brexiteers have produced a study saying Britain will be better off? Gee! Who'd have thought it, eh? I'm sure we're all so much more enlightened!