To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

@Oliversmumsarmy can he do lifes kills level 2? I think that's instead of a GCSE.

Bearbehind

Can you explain why some poor people wear 501s and some rich people wear primark own brand?
Why some people always shop at M&S whilst others shop only at lidl?
Or why some people will only buy heinz when tesco's own brand comes out of the same factory?

We could go on forever with this and whilst this has been pretty much no fun at all, I will leave you with a paraphrase of your own point

'Although we have agreed on some points Let’s just agree we’ll never fully agree.'

and finally

Be well, and may the small people sing songs of your greatness.

@Oliversmumsarmy and just an FYI.
Your system isn't set to work against you. You know they don't just hand out qualifications in other countries without going to school.
If anything, it's actually tougher from what I can compare. If your son ever qualified he too could go to any other EU country, get his cert converted and get to work. It's not just that UK decided it's a free game. That lad who has cert from another country most likely spent 3 years at college and apprenticeships to get it. And to get to the college, you must pass the education below (GCSE level).

I just wanted to make sure this is here, because from your pp I am getting a feeling you don't think highly of foreign education and qualifications?

The “Leavers” I know (definitely not rich) are definitely better off since June 2016. You are spectacularly missing the point. We haven’t left yet, but when we do jobs will go because it will no longer be viable for large companies (eg Nissan to be based in the UK). No business leaders want Brexit - that speaks volumes. As soon as large employers start to pull out there will be a knock on effect on other local business as the economy spirals downwards. you can’t see the effects yet - because it hasn’t happened yet although the money in your purse is worth less now than it was before (unless like JRM you’ve moved your millions to Ireland). In fact your comments illustrate the point I was trying to make - that ordinary people have really been played into thinking there is going to be something in it for them.

boney you are just talking in riddles to avoid the question.

You have said both

• Brexit won’t affect the very poor as they have nothing to lose

And

• People are happy to pay more for food

I’m assuming by ‘poor’ in the first point you don’t actually mean people who can afford to wear 501s but people who need food banks poor.

It still makes no sense to therefore state that people are happy to pay more for food, and caveat it with ‘this has been known for years’ when you’ve no actual evidence for that at all .

They are both just your opinion.

These questions are always boring, because they're predicated on someone who voted for not-X demanding those who voted for X for justifications of how they voted.

I myself am a Tory voter and indeed a member of the Conservative Party. If we had an election tomorrow and Labour won, would I be justified in coming on here and saying "Corbyn is an anti-semite, a cheerleader for terrorists, a dupe of a Czech spy, a hater of the West. How can Labour voters justify for voting for someone lower than vermin?"

No, probably not. Who am I to demand reasons from those who vote for my political opponents? And I say that as someone who voted Remain and would do again.

Don't think i twisted what you said at all - this is what you originally said:
There were whole sections of communities that did these jobs, moving from area to area, and making a good living out of it and they were British

Then:
I can remember British seasonal farm workers till about 1990, it was at that point I left the area

I think i've quoted you accurately, you change your tune according to what comes into your head.

You also disputed the foreign workers bit, you called it an "anecdote"

Go back to your drink.

Interested to know, as a Tory party member and a Remainer, who you are voting for in the PM race reality

Syphilis or gonorreah?

jasjas1973
Go back to your drink.

Another fine response. Well done.

But as with bear I'm going to leave you to it.

But as with bear I'm going to leave you to it

Good!
People like you have done irreparable damage to the UK - despite the overwhelming evidence that Brexit will damage the UK (backed up by the main pro brexit politicians) you carry on with your little englander mentality and solutions.

Open your eyes! look at how we 've been forced to bowed to Trump? from Mays hand holding to Boris refusing to back our man in Washington.....
We are a little relatively insignificant Island of the coast of Europe, far stronger in europe than outside looking inward.

boney it really is disappointing that you join these threads but never actually answer the questions raised in the discussions, preferring to play the victim and just twist things around instead.

After 3 years I would have hoped people would either have stronger supporting evidence for their views or they would have begun to question those views - but no, it’s still mainly opinion disguised as fact which nearly always ignores the reality of the situation.

would I be justified in coming on here and saying "Corbyn is an anti-semite, a cheerleader for terrorists, a dupe of a Czech spy, a hater of the West. How can Labour voters justify for voting for someone lower than vermin?" You would and you could - actually what you you have listed there are just a few of the reasons that even seasoned Labour voters are turning away from Labour. I think the difference with Brexit is that the promises made by the Leave campaign were clearly lies. If we'd easily negotiated a fabulous deal, quickly made lots of new tariff-free trade deals and were spending an extra £350 million a year on the NHS I don't think anyone would be complaining. They were obviously lies to anyone with half a brain at the time they were made, but even those with less than half a brain should be able to see that none of that is ever going to happen and might want to question whether they still want to go ahead in the circumstances.

Everyone I know who have voted Brexit and most I've heard on the radio/TV have done so because of immigration. They're not bothered about the economy because they're so obsessed with immigration.

I do think they'll start moaning when it affects them personally. But they believe it will only affect others and are selfish enough to not care about them. It's also pretty ignorant to think that the economy struggling is not going to impact you however well off you are, in terms of crime rates, social impacts, decreased public services, political and social unrest, lower standards in education, infrastructure, health which affects all of us in the long run.

can he do lifes kills level 2? I think that's instead of a GCSE

He could but as that would take a year to do that would be all he could do for the next year and he just wants to get on with things.

NinjaInFluffyPJs I have actually looked into this.
Other countries I have looked at work on the same system as we used to.

No actual gcse equivalent exams needed in any subject in order to qualify as a tradesman

He could go over to another country and qualify on a student visa then come back and work here as a qualified trades person.

But he wouldn’t be able to automatically work in some other countries because he wouldn’t have a work visa and wouldn’t get one because he couldn’t speak the language.

Ds has also been to school and has just finished the 2nd year of a 5 year training programme but is now being stopped because he can’t pass an English language exam.

Yet as we have found we let people work here with no English but as a British person we wouldn’t be able to work abroad because we couldn’t speak the language

That is why I think our system is designed not to work for a lot of people.

Yet as we have found we let people work here with no English but as a British person we wouldn’t be able to work abroad because we couldn’t speak the language
This just isn't true. English is obligatory as a subject in most if not all EU countries so almost all young people can speak it, some to a very high level. Why can't he learn a language like they do?

Friends moved to a European country when her Ds was about 11, a couple of years older than my Ds.

He speaks the language but didn’t pass any exams and is doing the same trade as my Ds with none of the issues that we are having.

You keep on saying a European country but not specifying which one which makes it difficult to comment. Contrary to popular belief each EU country makes its own rules! Where I live in Italy if you leave school with qualifications you have been learning English for at least 10 years. What trade does your ds want to do? Why can't he pass GCSE English?

timeforakinderworld Firstly if all these people working here can speak English how come the plumber I was sent to fix my boiler couldn’t understand me and I ended up doing a lot of pointing and miming to get myself understood.

If he could speak English why didn’t he

Regarding Ds learning a language are you suggesting I pack him off to Poland or Italy or Spain for a couple of years at 17 so he can learn a language then take up the rest of his course (3 years) as a student abroad?
Just so he can qualify.
We have looked into him going to the US but because of his age he will have to wait a year anyway.

Why can't he pass GCSE English

Because he has dyslexia, dysgraphia and ADHD.

I too have never passed an English Language exam (taken 7 times and got a U every time)

Neither has his sister or his father. The latter though does have a Law degree and is qualified in 2 different professions.

Just because you can’t analyse a poem or write a story doesn’t make you too stupid and it shouldn’t mean you are consigned to a nmw dead end job for the rest of your life.

Firstly. Why are you talking about visa when we are talking about EU countries?
Secondly. Not having exams does NOT mean that person doesn't have to pass certain levels of education. It's not all about an exam, you know. For example where I am from you must finish secondary school with certain grades to be bale to go to college or pass their own entry exams. Each college sets different grades and pass marks.
So yeah. We don't sit GCSE, but we have that level of education and they look at our end of year grades. Then you have exams when you finish level 3 at college. Many countries have it same or similar way from what I understand.

He could but as that would take a year to do that would be all he could do for the next year and he just wants to get on with things.
Obviously he will have to take that year since he can't get on with things.

And just to add, this is not the first time you turned EU thread into "System works against us because my DS this and that", is it? I am having bit of a déjà vu.

NinjaInFluffyPJs

So what happens in your country to the people who have dyslexia and can’t pass the exams to get into college

Also I was talking about visas because we are leaving the EU.

OliversMummy, plenty of trade colleges take people with poor GCSE results to study NVQ, BTEC, Diplomas etc along side maths, English and science key sills.

If your DS has learning difficulties he will be entitled to extra tuition and support to help get through key skills and pass his trade course.

At the end of the day not everyone can go to uni and get a brilliant, high level job. It's not fair but it's the way society works and will continue to work regardless of the EU. Colleges have to set a bar somewhere and unfortunately your DS falls below it on certain subjects. That doesn't mean he has to be stuck in a dead-end NMW job all his life if he works hard. He can learn a trade, though Brexit is likely to put the kibosh on anything construction related.

Well, people with dyslexia can get lots of support nowadays so they always place somewhere. Even decades ago they did. If you fail last year of secondary, you can repeat so you pass, even if just about. Then you go to college which accepts low grades and you can try entry exams in others.
Tbh I've known only 1 person in my whole life who didn't achieve level 3. And I had classmates with dyslexia i myself have adhd.
Without level 3 you are extremely limited on job market and wage options and end up working in jobs like digging, maybe a delivery driver and few others. But then again. To ensure everyone gets some education we have NVQ level 3 even for subjects like shop assistant, waiter etc.
It's to encourage people to stay in education. We don't just learn the particular trade in college. We have other subjects in there. For example a plumber would have 2 languages (includes native maths, physics, chemistry, IT basics, economics, ecology and a general knowledge thingy (citizens ed - about basic history, politics, taxes etc). And obviously about 4 specialist subjects about plumbing and plenty of work experience.