To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

It's not totally impossible

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/english-not-the-first-language-in-240-schools-with-five-primary-schools-having-no-native-speakers-at-8886572.html%3famp

More likely that EU arrivals tipped the balance than that it is exclusively arrivals from one country. I live in a leafy very non diverse spot where English is likely to be the first language, but I do recognise that immigration doesn't affect all areas uniformly. If you are the one native English speaker and others have friends based on their own languages, that could be tricky socially and in terms of getting focused time on your learning, though doubtless many good schools manage it

@Bearbehind
family dismiss it all you like but the fact is more could have been done.

I didn't say more couldn't have been done. I said that the often repeated claim that we didn't need to end FOM to be able to control EU immigration was false and misleading - and it is.

There are no measures we could have adopted that would have been even close to the effect of ending FOM.

That's just a fact.

I didn’t say that the numbers overtook the locals just that the shops and businesses were virtually all owned by one section and they made it virtually impossible to pick up work in the area.

Nothing was stopping locals to open their businesses before.
Immigrants go where the available work is. And where there are business opportunities. We don't go somewhere where we may have no chance of securing living.

So my friends who just wanted a job after the children had gone to school and to help with the family finances should have gone for the managerial position at the local supermarket. (Despite having no qualifications) Or taken out a huge loan to buy a business when they are on benefits.

You don't start out in managerial positions if you have no experience and qualifications...
You start stacking shelves and move up.
Then you can save a bit and take a business loan.
Like the ones who now own the businesses did.

NinjaInFluffyPJs

So friends should have known how things turned out and instead of wasting their time going into nursing or book keeping they should have got a degree and begin to stack shelves and worked their way up so they could take over the supermarket as a job when their children went to school?

From my impression, what you seem to be saying is all those women who can’t find work for when their children go to school should have gone and done shelf stacking in a supermarket or saved money to buy a businesses to stop “foreigners” taking their jobs? Is that what you are saying?

I am now massively confused!
So my friends who just wanted a job after the children had gone to school and to help with the family finances should have gone for the managerial position at the local supermarket. (Despite having no qualifications)

So they have qualifications? Then obviously they would go into their field??? It sounded like you were talking about friends who were looking to get a job in the shops and had no qualifications...

There are no measures we could have adopted that would have been even close to the effect of ending FOM.

I suspect the reality will be that there’s very little between what we could have done and what we actually do.

EU immigration has dropped massively anyway as people simply don’t want to come here / stay here anymore.

If a Pole or Romanian can come to an area and get a job stacking shelves etc then so could a local person looking for work.

I used to know a Polish couple who started working for a cereal bar manufacturer, they rose to managerial positions, they employed mainly EU workers.... why?
Because they would work the weekend and night shifts, the brits only wanted the day shifts.
They both moved back to Poland, fed up with the racism they constantly experienced in their 9 years living here & all this long before brexit.

I suspect the reality will be that there’s very little between what we could have done and what we actually do
That may or may not be the case.
I am glad you’ve accepted the claim that we could have taken measures equivalent to an end of FOM whilst remaining in the EU is false.

family I think you’ll find I actually said Except we could have controlled EU immigration more than we did.

But if it makes you feel better to prove something that I didn’t actually say, was incorrect then carry on.

Friends couldn’t work weekends and evenings as they had children.

So saying that Brits don’t want to work evenings and weekends could have something to do with being a single parent they cannot just disappear out on the evenings and weekends and leave children to fend for themselves and I doubt it would be financially viable to get an overnight sitter in anyway

jasjas1973 how did your couple manage childcare if they were working every weekend and evening?

Also Nurse was made redundant from her job so couldn’t return to nursing and bookkeeper with childcare and travel it was unviable.

Low ability of around the school hours jobs is not an immigration problem though

But if it makes you feel better to prove something that I didn’t actually say, was incorrect then carry on.
At the risk of getting too far off thread - I also didn’t say that you had said that. I am pleased you accept that although we could have done more, we couldn’t have done anything approaching the same effects as ending FOM.

Low ability of around the school hours jobs is not an immigration problem though
It’s a problem for local families if there is a ready supply of immigrant workers who don’t have the same issues.

It’s a problem for local families if there is a ready supply of immigrant workers who don’t have the same issues.

From what I gathered on MN it's a problem everywhere, no matter what immigration levels in that particular city. Hence, not really a problem caused by immigration

jasjas1973 how did your couple manage childcare if they were working every weekend and evening?

They didn't work every weekend and evening going and they didn't have children because they couldn't afford them, just as i didn't have any until my early 30s.

Before they left, they found that brits, whether parents or not, just do not want to work the anti social hours.
Presumably in your town, all the migrants have children (as they ve filled up the local school with non english speaking kids) yet have also taken all the jobs too.... how do they manage childcare?

To back up my point (anecdotally) - My DD who is at Uni has just walked into a summer/holiday job of a care assistant, 19yo earns £8.50 per hour, mainly covers evenings and weekends, there are also no migrants working in her area, the ones that used too have gone back.

I am pleased you accept that although we could have done more, we couldn’t have done anything approaching the same effects as ending FOM

I happen to agree with you here, unless we have wholesale reform of non contributory benefits and an ID card system to ensure we limit illegal working, there is not so much we can do.
Would also be nice to have accurate numbers too, atm we are all just guessing via honesty surveys.

Of course what has happened as EU migration has fallen is that non EU immigration has risen to take up the supply of workers.

Our economy is based around low wages low skills & low productivity, that also has to change.

So no childcare, hardly a comparable example.

Before they left, they found that brits, whether parents or not, just do not want to work the anti social hours

So they said it so it must be true.

Must tell Dd and her fellow workers they are either not British or doing a 10am - 4am shift is not unsociable hours.

The fact they didn’t come across any British people might have been because of other reasons rather than not wanting to work unsociable hours.

Before they left, they found that brits, whether parents or not, just do not want to work the anti social hours

So they said it so it must be true

Well, they were recruiting the workers, so ought to know!
i got to know them both very well, they weren't lying, it was their experience, they were being told at interview "i don't want to work w/e's evening etc" the reasons were not discussed.

The question came about because i asked them if EU workers worked harder, they said "No, just less flexible"

Going forward, if we wish to stop immigration but still have a functioning economy, then we need to look at the reasons why Europeans have found it so easy to come here and get work but UK workers "appear" to struggle.

Going forward, if we wish to stop immigration but still have a functioning economy, then we need to look at the reasons why Europeans have found it so easy to come here and get work but UK workers "appear" to struggle

In ds’s case he cannot qualify in anything (despite getting near perfect scores on tests and assessments) in his chosen trade because he cannot pass the English GCSE.

Even if he passed all the exams and did all the Apprenticeships he cannot qualify because you need both Maths and English GCSEs

However someone who qualified in another country but cannot speak English is able to work here using their qualification.

Our whole system is designed to work against us.

Bearbehind
I think it’s clear here that the problem is people like boney think that all the wrongs in the economy should be righted and have somehow concluded that Brexit will achieve that.

Its clear that you don't know me at all and are content to make stuff up about me.

jasjas1973

Not at all, you stated that British communities made a good living picking fruit and veg..... then went on to say it was just a local thing you saw until you left the area!

I didn't say that it was a local thing, I said that I saw saw it in my local area. What an interesting twist!

Foreign workers have been used in Agri for centuries -that is a fact that can proven through basic research.

Yes they have. I haven't disputed it, I Have just pointed out that British people used to make a living at this.

boney it would be good if you explained how, on 1 hand you think people are prepared to pay more for food but on the other hand, Brexit won’t affect those who already have nothing because they can’t fall any further?

The 2 things seem completely contradictory to me.

The poorest can’t afford to pay the increased prices. Such increases would move the next poorest down a level and many of the rest of the population simply don’t want to pay any more.