To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

Also, illegal workers (from outside of EU) are not viable as they used to be.
Fines are up to 20k per each illegal worker and possibility of prison. It's just not worth it anymore.

Bearbehind

And how does Leaving the EU avoid the issue of illegal work gangs?

Who said that it would?

And just for clarity being in the EU hasn't stopped them either.

And as we heading towards this topic it hasn't stopped many other forms of human trafficking either.

The problem with Blair immigration policy wasn't immigration.

We have always had migration /immigration. We, are not a newly opening up previously communist country.

We have always had ebb and flow of people from round the world.

The problem was the sudden and un expected volume of people.

This is fact, well documented.

The first job of any government is to protect its people.

Fruit and veg did get picked prior to the flood gates opening!

Yes we need immigration the question is how much. Was it a good move for the UK to suddenly be absorbing millions of new immigrants in large numbers.

Was that a good move by Blair? Its Widely admitted now, no it isn't.

The government didn't act in the interests of the UK. It acted in the interests however of the eu long term.

So a whole generation felt thrown under the bus, for the sake of longer term eu goals.

These people feel that the government betrayed them, and their interests, felt powerless... The eu and the eu project is over whelming UK needs and politics.

The UK was trapped trying to manoeuvre afterwards by constraints placed on it by eu.

That's what's going on out there folks and it exposed the ties and rules and power of the eu giant.... And it exposed how trapped we are.

It's very sad all around really and immigration will never stop and nor should it.

We need a flow of people to and from any country... Simply at a manageable rate.

Gangs have flourished... Crime, sex trafficking, endless articles about slave labour...

NinjaInFluffyPJs

I am not sure which gangs you are talking about. I think we are talking about different ones. I meant the ones who charge farmer normal going rate, but pass on only pittance. But the worker will say nothing because the gang has their IDs and big scary guys.
So no wage undercutting in real. Farmer still pays the same.

I am talking about the older gang types when farmers could hide things a lot better.
In this case its the same scam for the gang masters. But the losers are still the workers who are generally kept in squalid conditions.
And the farmers turn a blind eye as they get workers at the cheapest rates.

(Not all farmers before people jump in)

NinjaInFluffyPJs
Also, illegal workers (from outside of EU) are not viable as they used to be. Fines are up to 20k per each illegal worker and possibility of prison. It's just not worth it anymore.

I agree, but if the farmer can prove that they were paying the correct rate and have no idea of what the workers are being paid then they can get away with it.

Just for information

www.fwi.co.uk/news/shocking-extent-of-modern-slavery-in-agriculture-revealed

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/modern-slaves-cornwall-flower-farm-workers-immigration-human-rights-bosahan-farm-manaccan-a8201146.html

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-45458387

The issue isn't the consumer (because they will pay more), its the contract between the farmer and the supermarkets

So how do you explain the popularity of price driven supermarkets like Aldi and Lidl?

I still maintain that it’s idealistic to think people are happy to pay more for things - some people just simply can’t afford to

Bearbehind

So how do you explain the popularity of price driven supermarkets like Aldi and Lidl?

How do you explain the popularity of branded goods, when supermarket own brands are often the exact same thing?

I prefer the taste of the branded stuff but then I don’t shop in Lidl or Aldi either.

Those who do are generally buying non-branded (or at least unfamiliar brands) anyway

Fruit though, which is what we are discussing, is not branded.

Bearbehind

Fruit though, which is what we are discussing, is not branded.

No, but you can buy it cheaper loose, more expensive in packs or even more expensive for organic.

boney On one hand you talk about people who have nothing and you think their life can’t get worse with Brexit and on the other hand you say people are happy to pay more for everything

Whilst I agree there are people in both camps, I’d argue the majority don’t want to pay any more and those in the lowest income can’t afford to pay any more

And even if you argue that increasing their wages if they are fruit pickers etc, it’s immediately cancelled out by the higher cost of food, particularly because the proportion of income they spend on necessities like food, is high.

Bearbehind

Not sure where you are going with your last post as you seem to answer any points that you made yourself.

No I didn’t, I’m saying you can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim people are happy to pay more on one hand then say people who have nothing have nothing to lose with Brexit.

Most people either can’t or don’t want to pay more for food so increasing the price to pay workers more isn’t viable.

Everyone will be worse off under Brexit except for a select few v rich people who are set to cash in by moving their millions into a different currency and gambling on the pound plummeting (Jacobe Rees Mogg I’m looking at you). If you are poor and living in a poor part of the country (the North East, Cornwall, Wales) you might think you have nothing to lose, but you are going to get poorer - EU grants and spending are specifically targeted at areas like these - who do you think is going to help you once we are out? What I find most astonishing about Brexit is that some of the poorest people in the country have been persuaded to vote for something that will personally benefit a tiny minority of rich people dressed up as some kind of revolution for the underdog.

Yet you haven't provided any "facts" you are supplying the same type of anecdotal information that I am

Not at all, you stated that British communities made a good living picking fruit and veg..... then went on to say it was just a local thing you saw until you left the area!
Foreign workers have been used in Agri for centuries -that is a fact that can proven through basic research.

UK growers that stay in business will automate, for products where this isn't possible, the grower will pack up or do something else.

I work in an industry that has seen little migrant workers, pay has been kept low regardless since 2008, because all other employers keep pay down, there is no alternative but to stay and put up.
Same in social care, massive shortages, yet carers are on min wage.

Employers have used the GFC to keep the lid on wage rises, blaming it on FOM etc... a load of rubbish, its just what employers do, Mill owners in the 19C did exactly the same thing and just like todays employers, pay themselves fat salaries.
Recent increases are more to do with the statutory improvements in min wage.

I think it’s clear here that the problem is people like boney think that all the wrongs in the economy should be righted and have somehow concluded that Brexit will achieve that.

It couldn’t be further from the truth - as jas said there are thousands of low paid jobs that have nothing to do with immigration. Employers aren’t suddenly going to grow a conscious and pay everyone better - especially if they have other production cost increases for example increased cost of raw materials, logistical delays, tariffs and non-tariff barriers.

People need to be realistic not idealistic.

@BoneyBackJefferson I was talking about illegal non eu staff.

I know the cases of EU slave trade. The thing is you said "illegal work gangs" so I wrongly assumed you were talking about non eu workers.
That's where the fines I mentioned come in force.

The modern slave trade with EU workers is a different thing. Yes, some farmers do know what's happening and that's a bloody bastardy thing to just keep quiet. However, they still pay the going rate, unless they themselves are the gangmasters. That's how the gangs make their money.
I do believe the practice of slave labour in agriculture will soon be declining because the Home Office and police are hitting it hard. It does need higher punishments.

However, back to Brexit. This will not cease with Brexit. Same way trafficking from non EU countries is still rife. If people wanted these jobs available, leaving EU is not the answer. Making police and CPS go after the farmers who use slave labour is.

Also after 15 years in customer facing roles...
No. Majority of people would not be willing to pay more.

Also after 15 years in customer facing roles...No. Majority of people would not be willing to pay more.

Exactly - I’d love to know where the evidence that they would be happy to pay more came from - other than an idealistic notion than they should want to

Pretty much every supermarket advert focuses on being low cost - look how many there are with ‘basket comparisons’

They wouldn’t do that if price wasn’t the most important factor in most people’s decision where to shop

My Mum told me two things 1: employers aren't interested in profit, only big profit.
2: if they could, they would get the employee to pay them for the privilege of working for them.

The improvements in working conditions came about because of unionisation, not because the bosses wanted to better their workers lot.

Post brexit, they'll be food price rises but it wont be the poor people picking the stuff that will see their wages increase and attempts to get british workers to do this work will be based on coercion NOT higher wages.

Everyone will be worse off under Brexit except for a select few v rich people

The “Leavers” I know (definitely not rich) are definitely better off since June 2016.

We live near a town that became a magnet for one EU nationality.

Virtually all the shops were owned and staffed by non English speaking people from one particular country.

The racism towards the British people reported in the local paper was truly awful.

Ds did go to school in the town but found it quite isolating that he couldn’t speak to others in his class because of the language barrier. (The children did speak English but there was no need to because they were all from the same country)

Then after June 2016 people started to leave.
Now friends have jobs in the local supermarket etc and they are much better off than before so for them voting Leave has been a win.

So who owns these shops now?

It seems quite incredible that so many EU nationals came to your town that they completely outnumbered the locals, to the extent that there were no english pupils in your sons class.
With such a drop in population its amazing the school and the shops are still viable or did the local english return from the outlying villages that they had been forced to flee too?

This just sounds like an 'Express story.

@jasjas1973 quite. There are bigger EU communities, but I have never ever heard of one which overtook locals

And that's why we cant have a nice reasoned debate about Brexit

Not surprising really, you basically don’t care about the impact on you because you’re rich (allegedly) but have no comprehension how it might affect those who could lose their jobs. Totally out of touch with reality.

I didn’t say that the numbers overtook the locals just that the shops and businesses were virtually all owned by one section and they made it virtually impossible to pick up work in the area.