To ask if those who want to leave the EU are happy to be personally worse off in order to do so

[Bearbehind]

Following lots of discussion on the subject, it’s clear that leaving the EU is based on something other than financial impact, however, even the government’s impact assessments make it clear that there will be a negative impact.

Would you still chose to leave if you knew it would make you personally financially worse off?

The PP was quite right though - it’s a sorry state when knob rot is more important than the biggest thing to affect our generation.

Maybe a lot of people come onto mumsnet for other things other than Brexit.
Or maybe they’re bored of the same old same old being trotted out day after day.

Of course these people should be paid more, its physically hard & back breaking work, just because you don't need a degree, does not make it somehow lesser work.

Lots of jobs are well paid and don't require degree.
Skills should be more awarded than no skills like when someone spends years learning and qualifying as an electrician or a plumber or a plasterer. All skilled jobs requiring time and work to get them.

jasjas1973

I am not the one that said they shouldn't be paid more nor have I disparaged the type of work.

What I am saying is that is farmers want their fruit picked and no-one will do it they will have to entice people to work for them.

The contracts that the farmers have with supermarkets are a problem for the farmers to sort, not potential workers.

That is not to say that these contracts are in some cases (IMO) immoral.

i pulled you up on that and you don't like it....tough.

pull me up on what you like, but if you can only do so in a rude manner then you will also get picked up on it, so tough.

@Bearbehind
Some idiots voted brexit due to bigotry.
It’s interesting that those people on low incomes will probably suffer more🤷🏽‍♀️

Bearbehind

The point being EU immigrants weren’t ‘stealing’ jobs, they were doing the work British people didn’t / don’t want to do.

You are making two statements, only one of which is correct.

The point being EU immigrants weren’t ‘stealing’ jobs, they were doing the work British people don’t want to do.

Correct present tense.

The point being EU immigrants weren’t ‘stealing’ jobs, they were doing the work British people didn’t want to do.

Past tense incorrect, "stealing jobs" are your words I have never mention that and don't believe that they did.

As for people not wanting to do these jobs, There were whole sections of communities that did these jobs, moving from area to area, and making a good living out of it and they were British.

@BoneyBackJefferson

No, they won't entice workers to do the work, a grower cannot plant
a crop in the vain hope someone will turn up to pick it!
So, they'll go bust/do something else and supermarkets will import or we'll go without, in time mechanisation will take most manual farm jobs, its been ongoing for years.

When exactly did british workers travel about doing farm labouring, making a good living from this work?

Maybe a lot of people come onto mumsnet for other things other than Brexit.
Or maybe they’re bored of the same old same old being trotted out day after day.

dapple you are an odd one.

My threads clearly annoy you yet you feel the need to read them and post sarcastic comments instead of just ignoring them.

Do you just stalk my name or something?

Potter off and do something that doesn’t wind you up.

boney I have literally no idea what your last post meant.

jasjas1973

When exactly did british workers travel about doing farm labouring, making a good living from this work?

I can remember British seasonal farm workers till about 1990, it was at that point I left the area.

My grandparents seasonal fruit picking but it’s been a long long time since British young adults did it.

jasjas1973

No, they won't entice workers to do the work, a grower cannot plant
a crop in the vain hope someone will turn up to pick it!

And they cannot expect workers to just turn up to do the job, given the long hours and poor pay.

Sure some have worked on farms, travelling around but they were a minority.
UK growers have been using foreign labour for decades, if not far longer, without which, they cannot function.

Have to say, once again, you misrepresent the facts....

As for people not wanting to do these jobs, There were whole sections of communities that did these jobs, moving from area to area, and making a good living out of it and they were British

Not quite the case is it?

And they cannot expect workers to just turn up to do the job, given the long hours and poor pay.

Why does fruit picking justify anything else?

It has a short season so needs long hours.

It needs no skill whatsoever so why would it command anything less than NMW.

If you don’t think fruit picking is an NMW job - what is?

There were British seasonal workers flower picking in Cornwall in the late 90's/early 2000's and the travelling community regularly arrived to help out on farms. Talking to them they said they travelled around the country to various areas doing seasonal work, the women would pick and pack and the men would do the labouring. Picking and packing tended to be piece work and they were damn quick.

My mum used to go picking over summer as a student (in a different country). Usually lasted 2 weeks to a month. Depended on where and what. They also went to a place growing certain thing over autumn holidays to help out and then in a spring. These were for 5 days each.
I think it's great summer job. Go for few weeks, meet new people, make some money for the rest of the summer. They could walk out with £400 in 2 weeks.
Maybe that's how they should do it now. 2 weeks one group, 2 weeks other group and provide basic accomodation like shared caravans for VERY cheap or best would be free.

Would kids go to this nowadays?

jasjas1973

Have to say, once again, you misrepresent the facts....

Yet you haven't provided any "facts" you are supplying the same type of anecdotal information that I am.

Bearbehind

again supply and demand.

If you are flooded with workers you can pay them less (NMW)
If there are no workers you pay them more to get them to do the job.

boney but it goes back to the point that farmers can’t afford to pay too much because they don’t recoup the costs because consumers will not pay high prices for the goods.

There’s absolutely no reason why fruit picking should command more than NMW

It’s summer seasonal so plenty of students doing nothing and needs no skill.

To think otherwise is just idealistic nonsense and probably the root of the problem here - what you think should happen and what is realistic are miles apart.

I don't know anyone who would accept below minimum wage unless they were trafficked and/or their passport was taken off them and they were threaten, but then the fact that they get 20 a week doesn't mean farmer doesn't pay the agency gang legally required NMW. As a person legally allowed to work you just don't have to go below

Bearbehind

There are many jobs that students can do that pay NMW that require far less effort.

And I didn't say that it should "command".

I said that if you can't get the workers you have to do something to entice them to work for you.

You may consider it "idealistic nonsense" but the fruit didn't get picked and may not be picked again this year.

NinjaInFluffyPJs

At the risk of repeating myself, that is what I said upthread about local workers being undercut by illegal work gangs.

It doesn't happen (so much now) but it means that there is only a very small local work fore to draw on.

You may consider it "idealistic nonsense" but the fruit didn't get picked and may not be picked again this year.

I know. And all because, despite your idealistic notion of what those doing that job should earn, the fact is the consumer won’t pay a price that makes it worth paying the pickers anymore.

It’s more viable to leave the fruit to rot.

And this perfectly demonstrates the point of my thread - it’s all well and good having virtuous thoughts about what ‘should’ happen, but, unless you’re prepared to put your money where your mouth is and pay the price for those increased costs, it cannot end well.

@BoneyBackJefferson I am not sure which gangs you are talking about. I think we are talking about different ones. I meant the ones who charge farmer normal going rate, but pass on only pittance. But the worker will say nothing because the gang has their IDs and big scary guys.
So no wage undercutting in real. Farmer still pays the same.

At the risk of repeating myself, that is what I said upthread about local workers being undercut by illegal work gangs.

And how does Leaving the EU avoid the issue of illegal work gangs?

Bearbehind

And all because, despite your idealistic notion of what those doing that job should earn, the fact is the consumer won’t pay a price that makes it worth paying the pickers anymore.

But the consumer is prepared to pay more. As the amount of fruit reduces the price goes up.

Simple supply and demand.

It’s more viable to leave the fruit to rot.

The issue isn't the consumer (because they will pay more), its the contract between the farmer and the supermarkets.

This has been known for years.