To think tokophobia isn't a phobia but a normal reaction to the horror of childbirth

[TeenTitans]

And that the classification of it as a phobia is another symptom of society dismissing women's valid concerns as hysteria?

Even the most straight forward birth is still objectively awful. It's a large object being forced out of a small vagina. There are people who say they had a great birth but I highly doubt it would be up there with a romantic meal out, a good book or riveting film on anyones list of "fun things I'd like to be doing later".

Being afraid or repulsed by it seems very logical and classing women as mentally ill for voicing this isn't okaym

It’s rational to fear snakes and spiders, it’s not the same as a phobia.

@Cautionsharpblade - It’s rational to fear snakes and spiders, it’s not the same as a phobia.

Exactly.

*It's approximately 1 in 227 for stillbirths but that is any natal death after 24 weeks gestation www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthcharacteristicsinenglandandwales/2016

Again, a pretty crappy figure compared to world stats.*

Absolutely - the UK lags behind other developed countries on stillbirth.

In terms of birth outcomes (as opposed to stillbirths after 24 weeks, which as you say is about 1 in 227), according to the 2012 Birthplace Study, the rate of adverse perinatal outcome events (intrapartum stillbirth, early neonatal death, neonatal encephalopathy, meconium aspiration syndrome, and specified birth related injuries including brachial plexus injury) was 5.3 in 1000 for women having a first baby in an obstetric unit. Overall, for low risk women, it was 4.3 in 1000. So basically 1 in 200.

Sorry - 2011 Birthplace Study.

Absolutely - the UK lags behind other developed countries on stillbirth

And maternal deaths. I'm really quite shocked by both. I've always thought the NHS was very high standard but obviously not as good as I thought.

@herethereandeverywhere

I totally agree, and all of those things are pretty horrific on their own so it’s really overwhelming having to deal with all of them being potential parts of childbirth.

My birth wasn’t anything out of the ordinary. It still involved hours upon hours of agonising contractions, the most horrendous pain I have felt. It involved strangers walking into a room and inserting fingers into my vagina (including a male doctor). It involved me pooing myself with my legs wide open in front of my husband and a team of medical staff. It involved a pair of scissors slicing through my vaginal entrance to my anus and being sewn back up again afterwards leaving me with a permanent scar. I mean all those things alone are pretty horrific to most people yet it was just a normal day-to-day birth and myself and baby were fine, sent home the day after and I was never once asked if I felt okay after experiencing that. Let alone the many many births where things really do wrong and there are more traumas and complications.

@athousandmiles I think if that had happened to me I would never have had another child.

One of the main reasons I wanted home births was because I didn't want VE's and thought I might feel powerless to refuse if I was in hospital. At home I just said no and when I was asked again a few hours later I said no again and that was it. The idea of a hospital birth made me want to abort, perhaps a similar level of fear to others? A home birth was the most acceptable way for me to give birth, second most acceptable was a c section. Even if I wanted an epidural (I didn't want or ask for anything), nothing and no pain on Earth would have compelled me to ask to be transferred to the hospital unless there was something dangerous happening.

I think that my fears were not around giving birth, more around how women seem to be treated. If I could cut that bit out I knew I would be fine and I was. As I said earlier, I look back on the labours and births with happiness and if/when I have DC3 I will be booking another home birth.

There is no way on God's earth I would ever give birth again. I wanted a few children, maybe 3 but after my first at 19 ( I was married) I ensured I never became pregnant again. I tore inside, outside and lost almost half the blood in my body all with no pain relief as I was refused anything stronger than gas and air. Nobody would even leave an animal in the horrific pain I was in. I could never risk that happening again and possibly not being here to watch my child grow up. Never again. Not sure if this is a normal reaction to what I experienced or not

Well maybe I have this. My first birth was so traumatic, awful, prolonged.... I nearly died and had awful ptsd after. I was distraught when I became pregnant again. I had a panic attack at a hospital appointment I was so traumatised after my first birth. No idea if this is tokophobia but my feats were very real and justified., Birth in my experience is horrific.

@Historydweeb I’m so sorry. That’s exactly how I felt too.

I agree, except that I think it's stretching things a bit to suggest that people are regarded as mentally ill simply because they suffer from a phobia.

Well, I felt empowered and exhilarated after giving birth to DD1. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. It wasn't painful. It just felt like an incredible pressure.

I would be delighted to labour & birth again. It's the 9 months of pregnancy I can't face.

I agree with you OP. Pregnancy and birth are huge traumas that women have to go through and yet somehow there aren’t Hollywood films about their trauma and their courage. Imagine if there were birth films showing the blood and horror in the same way that there are war films.

But it is real, the thought of ever getting pregnant fills me with dread, to the point i abstain from sex, as the damage pregnancy and childbirth does to the body is something i cant imagine being able to live with. I have had lifelong OCD though and my biggest fear is incontinence, so i wouldn't even do elcs, as pregnancy itself does as much pelvic floor damage as birth. For me, its a 100% certainty if i accidentally fell pregnant i'd have a panic attack until i could abort, keeping is not an option in any circumstance.

I agree. I wasn’t abnormally afraid first time around. The second time I had a requested planned c section and was terrified (to the point of buying life insurance as I though I would likely die). I had PTSD from a hugely traumatic delivery. Calling it a phobia is deeply insulting. I don’t think you necessarily have to have experienced a traumatic birth yourself to be afraid- perhaps you have just heard enough tails of excruciating pain, poor care, near death or permanent injury to feel justifiably afraid. Would we say it’s a phobia to be afraid after a cancer diagnosis? Yes, lots of people survive it, but it’s horrible treatment and some people do die.

In hindsight I wish we had tried to get a surrogate.

So you'd put another woman's life and health in danger instead? That's actually horrifying.

On a complete side issue - as a retired anaesthetist, I’m a little peeved at the “anaesthetists who never turn up” comment.
We are not skiving in bed or sitting in the coffee room - in a large maternity unit, we can be stuck in theatre all night. My own personal record was eight Caesareans in a night. In smaller hospitals, the maty anaesthetist may also be covering ITU and emergency theatres for other specialties.
Epidurals do not always work- they can be very difficult to insert, especially in obese patients where you can’t feel any landmarks, and we can never guarantee that any individual patient will be able to have one (in and functioning) on demand.
Phobias are very real, and can be related to anything, not just pregnancy. Common ones include spiders, heights and clowns. They are labelled irrational, not to insult the sufferer, but to denote that they cannot be reasoned away with logic.
A woman with a normal level of anxiety about labour may be reassured by visiting the unit and discussing her fears with her midwife - for one with tokophobia, no amount of reassurance would make a whit of difference, and they need specialist phobia management such as desensitisation with a therapist.

The posts on this thread very clearly demonstrate that there exists BOTH a phobia and a logical, rational fear of pregnancy/birth. Neither one lessens or negates the other.

Some (most?) women have some level of fear of pregnancy/birth at least at some point in their lives. But, that fear generally doesn't interfere with their life or sex life.

For women with a phobia, it's beyond the normal, rational fear. It's toys are the same, but the effect is so different. A friend of mine suffers from this and is so terrified, that despite being sterilised, is now celibate because the fear of a potential pregnancy means sex just isn't an option for her.

Likewise, most people are a bit scattered of spiders. I am, but I can still go into a garden shed where I know there'll be some, even if I am a bit jumpy doing it. Someone with a phobia could not, at least not without being seriously upset/ill as a result. Neither situation negates the other.

I was terrified of birth and wasn't having children because of it .. normally I'm an incredibly resilient and brave person etc .. .. 2 years into my marriage I got pregnant and continued to have my dd .. her birth was every bit and more as frightening as I expected it to be .. I think that is due in part to my fear but I did also have Pre eclampsia and other issues so who knows .. birth is horrendous and frankly we should all be scared of it in my opinion .

I think the problem is there is such a huge range of 'normal' births, the women who are traumatised aren't lying but equally neither are the women who find it empowering.

Also they way women are treated in hospital varies so much. With DC1 I had a 3rd degree tear and pph, but at the same time I had a water birth and got to do skin to skin after. So although it was painful and the recovery took a long time it wasn't traumatic as I was treated so well by the MW/drs.
DC2s birth was amazing, after 7m of hyperemisis it was an uncomplicated 1.45m labour (still a 2nd degree tear but never mind) and I went home at bedtime. The best bit was the baby but no longer feeling sick was also great!

Its a proper phobia. Not just not wanting to give birth because its going to hurt.
My friend had tokophobia. Put off having children for years and then had to have intensive therapy.

I on the other hand knew birth was going to be painful, but wasnt frightened by it on any occasion

Before I had given birth, I wasn't particularly afraid even though obviously I knew it would be painful and unpleasant. Now that I have given birth once, I honestly don't think I could do it again. I've always been terrified of having to have a caesarean, so I just avoid pregnancy, which is a shame because I never planned an only child. I had a straightforward birth really, but it was still horrific and the after effects were horrific, and the state it has left my body in since the age of 21 is an absolute disgrace. I feel like if I tried to push out another baby I'd turn inside out.

My sister had to say she had in order to get a c section. She didn’t have a phobia - she just had a perfectly rational concern that childbirth would do her irreversible damage, would be traumatic and that her needs would be ignored throughout.

So she had two caesareans, in accordance with her wishes, quite rightly.

I was going to say YABU, but when I read that list, I think you have a point.

Look how many men won't get a vasectomy. They won't talk about it. They don't talk about childbirth, either, because they want to avoid the reality. They aren't classed as having phobias.

We are expected to just get on with everything.

The only useful thing about giving it a name is that it might get taken more seriously and the pregnant woman given more support.

@Babdoc, when you say that epidurals don't work, is that because you are too bust to monitor the situation? They work in other countrie, were they tend to be the norm. In the US the rate of obesity is even higher.

I say that as someone who had 'good' births and so did my DD (I was with her both times).