To think tokophobia isn't a phobia but a normal reaction to the horror of childbirth

[TeenTitans]

And that the classification of it as a phobia is another symptom of society dismissing women's valid concerns as hysteria?

Even the most straight forward birth is still objectively awful. It's a large object being forced out of a small vagina. There are people who say they had a great birth but I highly doubt it would be up there with a romantic meal out, a good book or riveting film on anyones list of "fun things I'd like to be doing later".

Being afraid or repulsed by it seems very logical and classing women as mentally ill for voicing this isn't okaym

Well it depends how you define ‘irrational’ really. For me, if there is a genuine risk then simply having a greater fear than someone else doesn’t make it ‘irrational’ as such. I feel that’s a bit....I don’t know...unkind? particularly when it comes to giving birth.

After DC2 was born, I became absolutely obsessively careful about contraception because the birth was so amazing that i was desperate to do it again, even though I didn't actually want another child. I've never taken heroin, but the way I felt in labour was what I imagine it feels like being on heroin - a sort of euphoric ecstatic bliss. I craved it for around 18 months afterwards. So it's not a repellant thing for everyone.

On the other hand, I have phobias of two things that lots of other people find pleasant, so I can completely understand that just because I find something pleasant, that other people can have a panic attack just from briefly thinking about it.

Assuming that all sensible people share your negative feelings is the phobia talking.

@ParrotWithACarrot - Well it depends how you define ‘irrational’ really.

I'm using the word irrational as that is part of the definition of a phobia - an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something

I'm not using the term to diminish or dismiss anyone's feelings, although I can see how you might have read it that way.

I think logically it is natural to have some fear of childbirth- it is one of the riskiest things we do. And a healthy respect for that and thankfulness we live in an age with antenatal care and c-sections seems appropriate. But a phobia is different and is an a disproportionate irrational fear.

As for my personal experience- I do dislike the contractions of first stage. I was asleep having a section with child 1 but pushing out child 2 (with an epidural deliberately allowed to wear off so I could feel to push) and child 3 (no pain relief) was completely euphoric..... empowering and visceral and vital. At the end of the day, a healthy baby and an unharmed mother is all that’s important but childbirth isn’t necessarily just pain and awfulness OP!

No sorry I wasn’t accusing anyone of anything. I’m just pondering whether it’s actually ‘irrational’ as in say, if someone was terrified of tomatoes. That would qualify as irrational. But as childbirth can genuinely be dangerous I’m kind of getting where the OP might be coming from.

Ooh Broomstick that’s how I felt birthing 2 & 3!

@ParrotWithACarrot - would you categorise a terror of flying as irrational if someone hadn't had a negative experience? Flying can genuinely be dangerous too.

I’m not dismissing the feelings of women with tokophobia

But you are....you did so with your first post.

I was a midwife and I can categorically say there is a massive difference between the very natural anxiety women feel about birth and those who fear it so much that they cannot function.

If you have the diagnosis yourself then perhaps I understand why you don’t “get” this difference.

Virtually every woman I ever met in pregnancy feared labour but most got through it and came back to have a second, a third, a fourth and sometimes more. In contrast the women with a severe phobia often didn’t have a baby at all or only had one and experienced severe anxiety throughout pregnancy unless there was a robust plan for birth they could have a proper say in.

When a woman literally goes INSANE and can't cope (as in she will be in danger..) it's mental illness. You could say the same about anything, like reacting to grief or being in a war. Not everyone will get PTSD.

I've met a lady with Tokophobia (first time mum) and I can absolutely tell you it's a real phobia. Her thoughts, actions and physical responses were far beyond that of a "normal fear".

isthisafreename
I completely disagree. I am not wishing a whole painful labour on anyone, just that if people chose they could feel it for a few minutes- men too. Because i think that many just cant comprehend what someone else is feeling. I think it would really help with maternity care. As pain is very much dismissed. Anesthetists who never turn up etc. Conveniently cant make it in time before birth.
I agree with others it is a rational fear (risk of dealth). Risk of incontinance or disability. But most people put aside the worry (a bit like flying). Im happy for those who enjoy/dont mind it. But feel this can then be pushing the nhs with it's cost saving attitude to push women too far

@Helix1244 - that's not quite what you said in your previous post. You suggested it as a way to avoid feeling like a wimp!

I think it would really help with maternity care. As pain is very much dismissed. Anesthetists who never turn up etc. Conveniently cant make it in time before birth.

I really don't think having others experience pain would make any difference, any more than having a doctor experience an epileptic fit would help them treat someone with epilepsy any better. The reason maternity care is so poor in many instances, the reason anaesthetists don't turn up etc is due to underfunding and inadequate staffing levels. If staff are run off their feet, they don't have time to empathise with someone who is suffering pain. They need to prioritise based on medical need. If you or your baby are not in danger, you will be a lower priority than someone who needs intervention to ensure a successful delivery, regardless of how much pain you are in.

I think any woman who wants or needs pain relief should be able to get it, provided it is medically appropriate. I think any woman who has a terror of giving birth should be helped to deal with this in a way that is appropriate. For some woman, that may be counselling coupled with guarantees of adequate pain relief. For others, it may be the guarantee of a CS.

*isthisafreename

No I wouldn’t describe that as irrational as flying is unnatural to humans and being in the air in something that could crash and kill you seems pretty rational to me.

Bold fail isthisafreename sorry. No that is also a rational fear

@ParrotWithACarrot - I guess we are just using different definitions of irrational then. I think a fear becomes irrational when your response to it far outweighs the probability of your feared outcome. So avoiding pregnancy or having an abortion because of your fear of childbirth is, to my mind more on the irrational end of of the scale, than being worried about pain etc. Obviously if there is a reason why you should avoid childbirth, that is different.

I agree with you OP. And I don’t think your post is dismissing tokophobia.

The point is that if you look at the statistics, it really isn’t remotely irrational to be afraid of giving birth. A 1 in 200 chance your child will die or be severely disabled? A very significant chance of a severe injury? I can’t think of any other situation in life where people are just expected to accept these kinds of odds. We all have different levels of risk tolerance, and I suspect those women branded as ‘tokophobic’ are simply more risk averse than some others.

I delayed getting pregnant for years because of being afraid of childbirth. I didn’t, and still don’t, see it as a phobia. It’s not irrational.

And I don’t think pathologising a fairly rational reaction as a ‘phobia’ is helpful. Making out that women who are afraid of something so risky have a ‘phobia’ (ie are mentally ill) is definitely another example of suppressing women’s valid concerns.

There’s a blogger I follow who posts a lot about how she got an elective section ‘for her tokophobia’. And whilst I’m pleased she got the birth she wanted, it grates on me every time. Why not ‘I had an elective c section because it was the birth I wanted, as I had very justifiable concerns about giving birth vaginally.’

But you can also die in a plane crash and I thick most people accept that a phobia of flying is mainly irrational.

But isn’t the point about the relative risk? I think a woman’s risk of dying in childbirth (in the UK) is about 1 in 6000 - and obviously the risk of the baby dying is much much higher - but your risk of dying in a plane crash is about 1 in 5 million.

I agree with you OP.

It's lovely that some people have had pleasant and empowering births but if you look at the statistics for:

• number of hours in pain, especially first births
• likelihood of tearing
• likelihood of needing episiotomy
• likelihood of needing an instrumental delivery
• likelihood of shitting yourself and/or vomiting whilst delivering (so commonplace there will be no stats!)
• likelihood of incontinence (urine or faecal)
• likelihood of other complications (pre-eclampsia/HEELP for mother, brain damage or death for baby (and the latter for mother)

your 'condition' looks like an utterly rational response.

I had a CS for DC2 because I didn't fully grasp the horrors, or the likelihood of them, when I had DC1 - I have PTSD from her birth and I'm still incredibly angry about it and the lifelong damage it did to me and my DC 10 years later.

There should be way more openness and honesty about what women put themselves through with VBs (unlike CS where the negative aspects were rammed home ad infinitum).

I absolutely loved giving birth. They were the most amazing, empowering and powerful times of my life. Yes it was arduous and painful but amazing. I would look forward to doing it again honestly.

@Buddytheelf85 - But isn’t the point about the relative risk? I think a woman’s risk of dying in childbirth (in the UK) is about 1 in 6000 - and obviously the risk of the baby dying is much much higher - but your risk of dying in a plane crash is about 1 in 5 million.

It's about 1 in 11,000, which is actually pretty crappy www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/apr/12/maternal-mortality-rates-millennium-development-goals. I live in Ireland and am surprised that ours is 50% better.

Your point about risk is valid, but you have a 1 in 240 lifetime risk of dying in a motor vehicle accident so by that logic, it would be rational to completely avoid getting in a motor vehicle as the risk of dying is significantly higher than giving birth.

@Buddytheelf85 - Making out that women who are afraid of something so risky have a ‘phobia’

There is a massive difference between have a fear of something and having a phobia.

Hang on- a 1:200 chance that a baby will be born dead or with severe disabilities? That’s presumably a worldwide figure?i

herethere- many of the things on your list do not mean that a birth can’t be empowering and a positive experience.

I didn't say those things precluded an 'empowering and positive experience' but I can completely relate to the OP because, for me, I cannot associate being incontinent or maiming my baby with 'empowering and positive'.

@BertrandRussell - Hang on- a 1:200 chance that a baby will be born dead or with severe disabilities? That’s presumably a worldwide figure?

It's approximately 1 in 227 for stillbirths but that is any natal death after 24 weeks gestation www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthcharacteristicsinenglandandwales/2016

Again, a pretty crappy figure compared to world stats.