To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

But it has more in common with a tax. The only reason it's called a debt is because you are still expected to pay if you work outside the UK tax system. Everything else about it screams tax.......all student finance experts will tell you that.

You've still not answered my earlier question Bellini

I thought I did @CostanzaG .
My solution is to reduce university places and make it more even difficult to get in but remove what you like tocall tax but what is obviously debt to anyone else.
Support academically able people from poorer backgrounds with, as a minimum, the kind of moral and emotional support I got from my parents to go to university.
And beef up proper non university training schemes giving proper tax breaks to companies and institutions who offer apprenticeships (or whatever you want to call them).

So you’ve met the entire population of England and decided this? What exactly are you basing this on?

I disagree. Most parents want the best for their children and that includes education.

I'm sure student debt management finance people call it tax to make it sound less prohibitive. But you incur it for getting a "benefit " and have to pay it back. That screams debt to me.
Unpaid tax liabilities are debt.

I think it's partly a class issue.

I come from Working class aspiration very pro education for most part people - and my generation of this family I think by most definitions would be middle class.

They watch documentaries, go to museums read books are generally interested in the world around them. They older generation don't always have the education but the interest in learning is there.

However, in the areas they come from and some we have lived in there is a sizable proportion of the population often my age who aren’t like that – and often don’t even value schooling and often put their children off further/higher education not for the likes of them. Some of the teachers seem to have very low aspiration for the kids as well – we’ve encountered that with our own children.

Then there’s money – many evening classes don’t exit any more – I know that how my Dad got many extra qualifications once he started working and degrees come with a price tag. I think it’s sensible for all university student to consider if the degree is worth it these days.

But it's not a debt in the traditional sense. It is entirely income contingent and it doesn't have an impact on your credit score.

Martin Lewis is a good source of info on this and he's independent and impartial. He also agrees it's more like a tax.

Still ignoring my earlier question I see... . Or do you agree that inequality in HE does exist.

Discussing it this morning with a pal - also an immigrant (generation after me - different country) who got their degree in their birth country. Both of us have bright and academically strong children. We were discussing how much value a university degree has these days in world of work. Her husband (also an immigrant) has an engineering degree.
We agreed that we'd like to think it did but the cost is so much more prohibitive now.

Do I agree that inequality in HE exists - you've asked so many questions @CostanzaG , forgive me if it seems like I am ignoring that one.
Answer: of course it bloody does. As in life. However - and I love your dream that debt isn't debt and complicated financial instruments are the way forward for people in poverty (we have a word for that) - people should only be put off going to university by academic ability (or lack of) not money. Which is how it was for me .

I don't see anything wrong with people valuing education initially for the more tangible benefits of future employment prospects. Once someone has been educated enough to reach those goals they will enjoy other studies, but if everyone enjoyed medieval poetry it would be mainstream enough to pass without comment, like an interest in discussing sports, or enjoying cooking (both of which require knowledge). People have different personalities and interests, criticising other personality types simply shows a lack of understanding.

If you try travelling then you'll find that some countries don't have such a good education system and some other countries are even more focused on education for its future monetary value. India didn't set out to train a generation in IT because the government decided they liked computers, it was for the economy and it worked brilliantly. The USA has amazing universities and a real love of higher education, but try asking people why they took a Masters course and you'll still hear about work opportunities rather than an esoteric passion. The USA is actually the only country that's ahead of the UK in numbers of foreign students travelling to study, because our education system is so good. The UK is actually in the top 5 most educated countries in the world, and it didn't get there by chance.

I wonder how many children in the UK appreciate how lucky they are to receive free schooling and realise that for millions of children around the world it isn’t something everyone gets. Children in developing countries seem to know or have been taught, from a very young age, that an education is something that will help them and their families make a step towards improving their lives. When children are interviewed in documentaries about life in refugee camps, the one thing many seem to be desperate for is to be able to attend school. There are sometimes kids of high school age setting up informal schools for the younger ones.

My family were immigrants and my DF told me that he and his classmates would get to school early and sit waiting for their lessons to start. DF had to leave at 13 and never got to complete his education but when he retired he enrolled on a BA course. He went on to get his MA. He had always wanted to go to university and was proud that his children got to do that when they left school.

For some disadvantaged children in the uk there just doesn’t appear to be the realisation that going to school, appreciating and making the most of the education gives them power and more choices in life. Or even when there is that realisation they can’t commit to getting to school and working hard.

It's not a dream... it's the reality.
Inequalities in HE are present and it's a complicated and multifaceted issue.

You claimed that my suggestions of inequality were simply my interpretation of data. I explained that white working class men were currently one of the most underrepresented groups in HE - why do you think that is?

Why do white working class men do participate in HE. I dunno. Maybe they don't like the idea of being in debt. There are lots of pressures on men to get out of education and get earning. And however many years of student loans seems not to have changed that. I'm sorry but I'm not dreaming. Spin it how you want from want can only be described as a comfort zone. It is a debt.

Finance is one element - white working class communities tend to be debt averse. However, they didn't go when it was free so that's not the only reason.

constanza When I went, there were not the school programmes to encourage kids to think of university. Literally no one at my school talked about university as an option. I doubt that is the case today.

No it isn't the only reason but being from that background and having gone "when it was free", I recall a lack of aspiration among my peers and a fair amount of pisstaking of people who went to university. Some of those peers did ok and went back to education and training. Some got a trade. Some are dead from pissing their lives away on booze, fags and/or drugs. Some are alive and still complaining about lack of educational opportunity - passing this view onto their kids and now grandkids. Because they don't want to get into more debt.

ExactlyClaire it's been recognised as an issue and there are intiatives in place to tackle inequality.
It still exists though and is part of the reason social mobility is a major focus of recent government strategies.

I had a pal who went to Oxbridge in the 80s . His single mum (in the middle of a messy split from another partner at the time) sought out a Miss Marple type who lived locally and was able to tutor this pal into getting into Oxbridge. Nothing like the aid and information available now for anyone to access.
Being saddled with debt just plays into any misconceptions people from poor backgrounds have about accessing HE.

Some bloody carpetbagger coming in and trying to spin the word debt and call it something else, isn't helpful.

Using language like saddled with debt doesn't help either 🤷

No it doesn't. But being saddled with debt isn't helpful either. Are you going to pay it?

If Brexit has taught you anything, it should be that dismissing people's genuine concerns because they use descriptions of their situation that you don't like is foolish.

Why do white working class men do participate in HE. I dunno

DH is one who did - his Dad a very physical outdoor mainly job massively encouraged him to go.

However, I think for the majority the damage is done in schools. I have a DS – who like his sister has at times struggled – but primary school had the attitude of well he’s a boy what do you expect – and we live-in working-class areas.

Worst still he just classed as a summer born – eldest DD1 days before cut off point never had oh well she’s summer born once when she struggled.

We’ve also found using DH PhD Dr on school forms – it’s quiet frightening how it raises some teachers expectations of our children more so in primary.

I pay mine - thanks for asking.
I didn't view it as debt ...but as an investment in my future.
If I succeeded then it would be worth it. If I didn't, then I wouldn't pay it back.

And that has to be the most tenuous link to Brexit ever! Lol

You think that's a tenuous link to Brexit? Explaining how a lot of people in poverty feel about debt using words you don't like? What about if they talk about immigration using words you don't like? Or austerity?

My parents saw it as an investment in my future. It's a great way of looking at it. But many people see it as prohibitive debt incurring costs from the outset they can't hope to afford. Don't take it personally if people refuse to use your magic explanation as why debt is not debt.