To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

[Raspberry88]

I agree OP ? General knowledge in UK its really shockingly bad. Especially history /geography and art. Not to mention spelling.

Is it? How do you know...what do you base that on?

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

Planetian I think it's a a recent thing for this to be a class issue, I think that in the past working men, in particular, would have been better read and done more to educate themselves that is the case nowadays. Grammar schools, whilst bad in some ways, did genuinely help the children of the poorer working classes to gain a good education and improve their prospects.

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

of course, there's also the issue that 'aspiration' is a dirty word these days as well.

[itsinchicago]

You say that you think university education should be free.

At the moment it isn't. It costs a bloody fortune. In England, funnily enough, which is where you are talking about. As a direct result of having to pay so much, people have to weigh up the pros and cons of whether it is financially viable in the long term to study a particular subject, and whether it will lead into a well-paid career.

If studying at degree level was free, then I'm sure far more people would study subjects for their own sake.

So don't go blaming the English - blame the dickheads who decided that a degree costs money.

[CostanzaG]

o don't go blaming the English - blame the dickheads who decided that a degree costs money

Degrees do cost money? They've always cost money...it's who pays for it that has changed.

Or should university staff work for free??

[Raspberry88]

If studying at degree level was free, then I'm sure far more people would study subjects for their own sake.

The problem is that there is only a finite about of money. Do people really have a right to study a subject for its own sake and for enjoyment if it comes out of the public purse.

[CostanzaG]

of course, there's also the issue that 'aspiration' is a dirty word these days as well

Who says aspiration is a dirty word? One of the major themes in the governments recent Careers Strategy is social mobility.

[Glitterban]

What's wrong with utilitarian. Being tired enough from just the daily grind, wtf do i care for another language, about dinosaurs, medieval history, quantum mechanics or the pros and cons of bipartisanship? Unless it somehow helps with your profession. Or you need to attend pretentious dinner parties and sound educated.

For plebs like me we just need food, a roof to sleep under, decent wifi and sex.

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

Constanza I'm not talking about the government, I'm talking about the public. I think there is an idea that to want to 'better' yourself is often disparaged. You see it on here - people who actively want and seek out the best school, for example, for their children can be eyed with a rather raised eyebrow. You should send your kids to the local school and never-no-mind if it's a shit school or a bad fit for your DC. Parents who get actively involved are performance parenting. That kind of thing. If it might mean that someone feels badly about their own life/choices then that can be a good enough reason for aspiration to be discouraged - 'well, X was good enough for me, why can't it be for you?'

[CostanzaG]

Weeping That attitude isn't universal and is often confined to particular sections of society....and even then it can be due to a lack of information and understanding.

I've worked for years in widening participation and generally those attitudes are cultural and can be summed up as 'people like us don't do things like that'.

[FuzzyShadowChatter]

Balance is important, but those in schools don't really have the control to create any balance and parents don't really have much more. The subjects and what topics are taught in those subjects are out of their hands and even when trying to change things, it's difficult to change what is available before even getting balancing this learning - no matter how valuable we see it - with the rest of life.

My Year 7 daughter is already at school 7-8 hours a day, plus homework and test revision. On Saturday mornings, we do a bit of the topics that she misses now she's at school, but she really doesn't have more time and energy for going in-depth on any more subjects no matter how much they interest her. Her siblings at home have more time and energy for that, but still need to cover the basic skills they need and what I, their father, and whatever qualifications they're hoping for says they'll need alongside any other learning for interest. Time and energy for learning has to be balanced with time and energy for other parts of life many of which constantly involve learning that is overlooked. Enjoying learning cooking is just as much enjoying and valuing learning as enjoying learning history.

Even more unbalanced, a university degree - it's in-depth study to one or two topics. People who go have to make a choice and with online learning tools which is great for many though not for all subjects or for all people, many find it doesn't make sense to go through the admin and stress and expense of higher education and living that unbalanced lifestyle to do so when there are alternatives.

Different people who value education can have different opinions on how to best have enjoyable learning in their lives and that this could change throughout their lives due to circumstances. That some don't see school or university education as particularly of interest doesn't mean someone doesn't value other kinds of education for education's sake.

[TapasForTwo]

“of course, there's also the issue that 'aspiration' is a dirty word these days as well.”

I don’t know where you live where this is the case, because it certainly isn’t where I live. In South Yorkshire we don’t have a grammar school system, so maybe the playing field is more even. I agree that education simply as a hobby rather than a means to an end is very much a middle class/reasonably wealthy background thing.

IME university students from overseas don’t tend to come to university in the UK to study sociology/film and media/game design/ancient runes or other similar subjects, so I would say that they are here to study specific subjects (engineering, maths, economics, medicine) to get a job in the field that they are studying. So how do you differentiate education for the fun of it from education for a reason, given that you say that they value education for the sake of it?

[gamerwidow]

I think UK popular culture dues tend to celebrate stupidity. Look at people like Joey Essex or Jade Goody who made huge careers out of being thick.
Children who do want to work hard or people who want to study for the sake of it are often mocked and seen as a bit weird.

[PlainSpeakingStraightTalking]

Children who do want to work hard or people who want to study for the sake of it are often mocked and seen as a bit weird.

Oh the irony! The parents with aspirations are slaughtered for using grammar schools.

[gamerwidow]

The parents with aspirations are slaughtered for using grammar schools.
Not by me they’re not I went to a grammar school myself and as a bright child it saved me. I still was bullied at home on my council estate for being a boff but I loved school.

[gamerwidow]

Ps I don’t like the tutoring that goes on to get into grammar school. If you need to be tutored to within an inch of your life to get in then you don’t really belong there.

[Londonmummy66]

I don't think I know anyone who is British who doesn't value education - it makes you a more interesting person who can hold a sensible conversation. I do know some people abroad (not saying where as I don't know that many people in that country so I don't want to make the same sweeping generalisations as you OP) who seem to think the sole point of education is to make you a doctor/lawyer/accountant etc so you can earn lots of money.

[Teateaandmoretea]

No I am not using England to mean the UK. I don't know enough about the other countries to say whether their culture values education or not for its own sake.

But the 'culture' difference in Wales isn't much more marked than different places in England as far as I can see. Have you been to all of England then?

Yabu I think and massively generalising. Ot isn't true for me or many other English people I know. But it is narrow to assume that education = school/ university. Most people learn through life and actively seek to do so.

[Lazydaisies]

I'm not particularly familiar with the English education system but I would say that the same (OP) could be said of second level education in Ireland, although maybe to a lesser degree.

Primary education in Ireland is phenomenal across the country and bad schools are rare. Teachers need to be extremely high achievers to become primary teachers and they are generally highly regarded, I rarely hear the type of criticism of teachers you get on here on Irish parenting forums.

However second level is exam focussed, way to centred on rote learning and significant gaps exist in subject areas, languages for one are poorly taught. The syllabus changes are slow and the second level system leaves a lot of students out in the cold if they are not a particular type of learner. Teaching is still good, but the "system" takes its toll on the educational value of the education.

[redexpat]

I hear your point about online learning but the evening schools have pretty much disappeared. You used to be able ro do evening courses in all sorts. No longer.

[bookmum08]

The English curriculum is very obsessed with testing but the tests rarely make a difference to the children's education. If a 7 year old cannot 'pass' the Year 2 sats they move on to Year 3 already struggling but extra help usually doesn't happen. Then at 11 'fails' the Year 6 sats. Again no extra help but straight on to Secondary School to still be struggling. The sats results give no help and are no point to the actual children.
Secondary School itself is a minefield. Applying and hoping you will be privileged enough to be offered a school place. In St Albans (I believe) this year didn't actually have enough secondary school places for all the Year 6s moving up. That doesn't put a lot of faith in the education system for a lot of parents.
Then there is all the pointless crap. Over the top uniforms that cost a fortune to buy and are mostly impractical wear for the average school day. Not being about to take a 5 year old child out of school for one day to experience a once in a lifetime event happening to a member of their family. 4 year old children being worried they will be 'in trouble' because they have outgrown their school shoes and they have to wear trainers for two days. Too much homework. Infant school age children being given tasks that cannot do by themselves and those tiny children crying and panicking over it. Children having to give up their groups such as Guides and Scouts, Dance Class etc because the level of homework means they just don't have time or are exhausted.
And then we get to GCSEs. Far too many subjects and exams. Mental health in teens is at unbelievably high levels. Teens have no time for anything else. For 2 (sometimes 3) years they are told that those exams are The Most Important Thing ever and there is no time to teach something just because it's interesting or fun because it's all about the exam grade. Then on to the next level. If you go for A Levels then it's all about the exam again. The pressure. No chance for a life again as everything is about those grades. Gotta get those grades today go to a 'good' uni.
Then comes uni. 3 years.
And then - yay - you can get a job.
Except it will be at Starbucks on terrible wage with an almost £30 000 debt hanging over you because it was all about 'getting a degree' rather than training for a specific job.
I value education. I also value confidence and mental health. I value the importance of being part of a community. I value learning things just because they are interesting and fun.
Unfortunately the English school system is just a bit rubbish really.

[itsinchicago]

Or should university staff work for free?
Who paid their salaries before the introduction of tuition fees?

Do people really have a right to study a subject for its own sake and for enjoyment if it comes out of the public purse.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting that course of action, I was merely pointing out that it isn't financially viable for most people to take a degree purely out of interest and for the advancement of their own knowledge any more. Which goes a little way towards answering the original OP.

[ForalltheSaints]

I think in England we do not value a trade or any profession that involves manual work enough.

[CostanzaG]

Or should university staff work for free?
Who paid their salaries before the introduction of tuition fees?*

Do you think we worked for free?
Universities were heavily subsidised by the government. Then tuition fees of around £1000 were introduced followed by £3000 and then the £9000+ system we have now.
However, universities haven’t been given more money. In fact, universities have less money now than before the introduction of the £9000 fees.
Before this the student paid the £1k or £3k and the government ‘topped’ up the amount it cost to run a degree programme. Since 2012 over 80% ( and in some cases more) of the government funding has been removed and cost of a university education has switched to the student. However, for most universities the £9k fee doesn’t cover the true cost of running higher education programmes.

Universities are not awash with money and many are in financial difficulties.

[itsinchicago]

Don't be so condescending ConstanzaG

I know considerably more about where government money goes than you do.