To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

[CostanzaG]

Nobody had a problem with it during the 10 years I spent delivering student finance talks all over the country.
I gave people the facts and in many cases people found those facts reassuring.

[clairemcnam]

All the middle class parents I know with kids at university, subsidise them a lot. It is a very different decision making process to go to university when you are being heavily subsidised.

[CostanzaG]

Very true Claire
One of the biggest issues with the current finance system is the expected parental contribution. It's not made explicit enough and it's hitting middle income families the most.

[bellinisurge]

Lovely @CostanzaG . And if you reassured people? That's great. But could you entertain for a second the possibility that people in poverty still fear debt; that it is a factor that is more acute than in the past when, as you put it, it was free. Although I think my parents not having a wage from me while I was at university and having to help me buy books and clothes etc, would probably tell you it wasn't "free".

[bellinisurge]

Lovely @CostanzaG . And if you reassured people? That's great. But could you entertain for a second the possibility that people in poverty still fear debt; that it is a factor that is more acute than in the past when, as you put it, it was free. Although I think my parents not having a wage from me while I was at university and having to help me buy books and clothes etc, would probably tell you it wasn't "free".

[clairemcnam]

True, but at least it means their kids can go. My parents got extra benefits to encourage parents to let their kids stay on at school till 18. They could not afford to subsidise me. I paid for everything once I turned 18, but was lucky enough to have a full grant.

[CostanzaG]

Of course I can understand poverty and it's impact on university applications. My point it's it's not the sole reason for inequalities in HE and that there is actually a lot of misunderstanding around the finance system.
Those seem to be the points you don't understand.

[MariaNovella]

My father, who would have been 86 were he still alive, was greatly opposed the the expansion of the universities. He thought that this would lead to the country trying to educate too many people, people who didn’t value education, merely their perception of a university education’s benefit (money, enhanced social status). He was dead right.

We need to refocus on education for people who enjoy education; and on training for people who are really only seeking fairly mechanical jobs.

Schools need to be repurposed away from their current dystopian role as factories to mould humans in the shape of future employment needs.

[CostanzaG]

My parents couldn't afford to subsidise me. I was the first person in my family to go to university and came from one of the most deprived areas of the UK.
I relied entirely on student loans and part time work.

[clairemcnam]

Yes I do understand that there are other reasons people do not go to university.

[bellinisurge]

I understand @CostanzaG . And it is rather patronising to suggest I don't. What I am saying is that the financial concerns people have add weight to any other concerns people have. And more so now than ever before. It is even harder to get people to invest the time and money in HE when it obviously saddles you with debt. I know you hate that expression but sadly actual people in the real world with real money worries still use it.

[CostanzaG]

I was referring to Bellini not you Claire

[Amongstthetallgrass]

The Government doesn’t value its own education system.

However not having a thougher education doesn’t mean you cannot prosper or be a good human being. Both DH and I never went further than secondary comp level and we own our business.

[clairemcnam]

Sorry didn't realise

[bellinisurge]

I agree @Amongstthetallgrass .

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education

I think you are right to an extent. I can't comment as to whether this is peculiarly English thing as opposed to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish (although I believe the Scots do have a tradition of valuing education) but when I see the focus on STEM and computing at the cost of humanities, or the fact that our tuition fees are so high (because why should less educated people subsidise the more educated - answer, they don't, and it's in the country's interest to have well educated people) and the fact that people think MFL are a waste of time, then I reluctantly have to agree with you.

Also the fact that many businesses won't train their staff or resent investing in them. If Brexit actually happens and UK businesses have to train our own rather than importing them all and expecting other countries to educate their workforces, that would be a plus.

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

But it's not a debt in the traditional sense. It is entirely income contingent and it doesn't have an impact on your credit score

But it makes you poor and affects things like affordability calculations when you go for a mortgage.

[CostanzaG]

Not as patronising as your suggestion that me pointing out inequalities in HE was just my personal interpretation of some empirical data.

I understand in great detail all the issues surrounding applications to HE. I've studied it for 12 years. It was to fucus if my masters and my PhD . I'm an active researcher in the subject and I teach it at postgraduate level. I really do know what I'm talking about. You may disagree but I'm presenting facts or results from years of academic research.

I do hate the term 'saddled with debt' . It's not impartial or free from judgement. It doesn't help people make informed decisions.

[MariaNovella]

If Brexit actually happens and UK businesses have to train our own rather than importing them all and expecting other countries to educate their workforces, that would be a plus.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the policy of not investing in proper training of British citizens and importing ready trained citizens from other countries was a ludicrous idea that by and large led us to Brexit, I fear that Brexit will not resolve the problem as it is now too late just to send the foreigners home and train up our own workforce: we lack qualified people to do the jobs, let alone to find time for teaching and training.

[CostanzaG]

How does it make you poor having
Students on the current system are paying back less a month than those on previous systems because the repayment threshold is higher. These students will score more favourably than those who paid £3k tuition fees.

[bellinisurge]

If you can't see the concerns people in poverty have about the cost of HE and it's connection to Brexit, you aren't paying enough attention. All the answers may be in your bubble but dismissing financial concerns as being only a small factor misses the point. I hope that when you are reassuring people that student debt isn't debt, you are listening to them and not preaching at them.

[BoaCons]

I never understood the anti-middle class bias. Of course the middle-class is actually v interesting in this country - where the arts lie, musicianship etc etc. After all, the chances of you being an amazing musician is nearly zero if you ain't from the middle class!

However, when the 'middle class' thing is simply - you have marriage + kids so you can then propel them in 'education' so they can have a nice 'uni' degree and a nice mortgage and a nice marriage and nice children ... you start to understand why its become a pejorative term!

George Orwell said "Education is the new God" and he was prophetic, certainly. Your character, your courage, your spirit take a poor third place. Personally, when parents tell me "Johnny went to x university" I couldn't be less interested. It means nothing, these days.

[CostanzaG]

How I have ignored poverty? I've acknowledged it's an issue. I'm saying it's not the only issue.

Brexit will have an impact on HE applications but we're not talking about general applications were talking about widening participation. Brexit isn't a concern in that respect.

I didn't preach I presented facts - people find facts reassuring especially as there is a high amount of misinformation out there related to student finance.

You can keep nitpicking and generally misinterpreting my posts but everything I have said is either factual or back up by research and evidence.

[yyyyxxxx]

I wish people would get off their brexit/remoaner soapbox and stick to the original question.

[MariaNovella]

Brexit and education (or rather lack thereof) are intimate bedfellows. It’s quite hard to discuss education without referencing Brexit.