To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

[NormHonal]

There's definitely some truth to what the OP is saying. Albeit donkey's years ago, I was someone who loved school and who was made to feel like a freak, and bullied, as a result.

Working in education now, and with my own DCs, it seems less ingrained now, although we live in a different demographic to the one I grew up in, and my DC1 is surrounded by a very bright year group with supportive parents.

That's why I love teaching KS1 and KS2, whilst the kids still have that innocence/willingness to learn because it's fun. Before the self-consciousness sets in (influenced by older siblings and parents).

[Butchyrestingface]

But if say someone comes from a well-off family, why should they not study a subject that they find incredibly interesting but will not help them get a job?

Aren’t you undermining your own argument here? If education is to be valued purely for its own sake, then the socio-economic status of the student should be irrelevant to the decision about studying medieval poetry.

I thiink few would disagree with the notion that someone with money to burn shouldn’t be put off medieval poetry. But the vast majority of the human race are not filthy, stinking rich and it’s not unreasonable to consider employment prospects at the end of a costly 3/4 years study. Doesn’t mean that the “English” don’t value education in and of itself.

[chioccioladicioccolato]

It's a massive generalisation, of course, but there's a kernel of truth in it, I think. I'm not saying the English care more or less about education than any other country in particular, but certainly in the school that I attended and the schools I taught in, education was not valued for its own sake. Or at all, in many cases. Trying hard at school makes many children targets for bullying, because lots of our young people see it as fundamentally uncool, not something to aim for.

I have to say I agree with this. Trying at school = target for bullying. You had to hide it to stay safe. Even to this day, I cannot stand anyone seeing me do any work. Also, something that seems peculiar to England. I say England because that's where I went to school and uni. Education and effort in education is certainly seen in a negative light, most definitely not something to be proud of, an attitude I've not come across in the countries I've lived (and taught in) since. We were taught only how to pass exams, not taught how to learn or how to use what we learnt in our environment. The only thing that mattered were exam grades.

[SabineUndine]

There seems to be an emphasis here on school. I'm in my 50s. I've got two degrees and two professional qualifications at degree level. I only did my first degree as full time education. I got the others as part of my professional development. I think it's perhaps more than education isn't seen in the UK as something that finishes when you leave school.

[clairemcnam]

Butchy I think education should be free. But since it is not, then choices have to be made about what to spend money on. I could not afford to go and study a degree for its own sake. But I do study lots of subjects free online. There are short courses on FutureLearn and long courses and free courses in America online such as through Harvard university.

[SabineUndine]

And I want to be quite clear - my first degree was for love of the subject. It's not linked to any job I've ever done. I did need further training for work purposes. But certainly my MSc, although related to the job I was then doing, was again because I loved the subject.

[Bezalelle]

Developing nations value education more, as it's a way out of poverty for them.

Developed nations start to value it less, as an educated populace are more likely to protest against the injustices of a capitalist system.

[TapasForTwo]

I think your view is too idealised. I don't think many young people would enjoy education for education's sake, especially in subjects they have no interest in. I started enjoying education long after I left school, and studied languages at evening classes because I wanted to learn them. But even then it was a means to an end.

I think you underestimate how rigid education is in many other parts of the world, especially China and Korea where the children are sent to school for ridiculously long hours. They are taught by rote and have to memorise loads of facts and information. But what they aren't taught is how to think for themselves. OH has worked in both those countries and is frustrated by the lack of initiative demonstrated by the people he has worked with.

I frequent the higher education boards on MN, and many posters have confirmed that most of the overseas students from these countries are unable to read around a subject and put their own ideas forward. All they do is regurgitate facts and then get marked down for plagiarism, because they have never been taught how not to.

I agree that our education system needs a revamp as it is too target driven and too much of a box ticking exercise, but we still need some way of providing evidence of a professional's capability of doing a job. For example you would want to know that a doctor/teacher/lawyer etc was properly qualified.

[SummerInSun]

I don't think it's a country thing, I think it's a modern world thing. There is now so much emphasis on doing well in exams and getting into the best school, the best uni, etc. Stressing primary school kids out about SATs results is not going to instil a love of learning for its own sake. And the teachers are forced to teach to those exams.

Also agree with the PP who said that the A level system where kids narrow down to three subjects doesn't promote a broad approach to education. I grew up in a country / went to a school where everyone was required to do English, one science, maths (at whatever level was appropriate to them), and two other subjects of your own choice. Much broader education. I'm often horrified by how little science, in particular, many British people know, and how little they understand scientific method.

[TapasForTwo]

I agree with everything you have said here ^^ SummerinSun

[SluggishSnail]

I'm often horrified by how little science, in particular, many British people know, and how little they understand scientific method.

I agree. But I don't think this is resolved by making everyone study one science to the age of 18. We need to identify students that are good at STEM subjects and give them the education to be good at it.

10% of people being excellent at the STEM subject of their choice is better than 30% being mediocre. Especially if resource is limited.

[Purplespup16]

There is truth in what you say....

You see as a society children are not valued for being children. Children are valued for what they will become.

Children do not generate income for the government and are one of (if not the) the biggest consumer of government resources. This means the more children we can educate to employment equals more tax revenue to try and recoup the resources used as well as generate more. So education itself becomes targeted, and if you’re child fails to reach those targets then the child has failed to to become revenue producers.It is a very narrow minded approach and it is clearly failing but instead of owning the failure, the government twists it to the parents.

Thus parents feel they have to make their child achieve target or above in order to be valuable to society.

Of course we don’t treat children as bad as we have in the past (ie Victorian era) however we haven’t yet discovered how to nurture children as children and not focus on what they will or will not become.

Until then we will continue to value education only as how much money that education will produce in the future.

[Goldenbear]

YABU, I think this is a very recent thing due to tuition fees, it's all about cost and return and the marketisation of education. This attitude filters down to education in schools where there is no appetite for learning for its own sake. When I was a teenager we did discuss the subjects we were studying, this curiosity lead to a deeper understanding of things that I think is lacking now.

[whohaa]

I think you're bonkers.

[MatthewBramble]

This has always been the traditional view of the English. (NB English the Scots, Welsh & Irish, according to this viewpoint, don't share it).

It is, of course, a sweeping generalisation, but sweeping generalisations aren't necessarily totally wrong. I do believe that in England, many people do not value education.

[woman19]

The English state and possibly its subjects values only the commodification of education.

They have never culturally valued egality of intelligence, and thus, they are where they are.

[MatthewBramble]

One of the most famous quotes about education is ^"It is tiresome to educate, it is tiresome to be educated and it is tiresome to hear education discussed."" Lord Melbourne (Prime Minister). That was in the 1830s and I think that sums up the view of a large number of people. One of the things that marks out the middle class in England, it's said, is that they are the only group who value education. The upper and working classes don't give a damn.

[formerbabe]

Nearly all the children is dc1 class who took the 11plus to get into local grammar schools were the children from immigrant backgrounds.

[Ella1980]

Well our government don't hence the budget cuts. Trust me, they are going to have a devastating impact on our schools.

I'm a primary teacher of 15 years looking for a job and I can't get one. Reason being is that Head teachers simply can't afford to take me on, they are having to choose NQT's or teachers with only a few years' of experience. They are also now commonly using HLTA's as "teachers" and lots of schools are having to share classroom TA's, even in bigger size classes.

[Justajot]

I think you have to look carefully at the groups you are comparing if you are using personal experience to draw this conclusion.

If your non-English group is largely made up of observing immigrants to the UK or the families that sent them, they may not represent their broader culture as they are a self-selecting group. Immigrants often do emphasize education, they can be the more educated members of the society they left or the upper/middle class from the society they left. By definition, immigrants have gone on a journey, potentially a costly and aspiration one. That journey continues once they are in the UK.

My family heritage is non-English and very keen on education, but you really can't unpick the two things. On one side, my family wouldn't be in the UK if they hadn't been keen on education in their country of origin as they moved as qualified professionals. On the other side they seem to value mobility and being well educated makes that easier to achieve.

[blueshoes]

OP, which culture or country values education in the sense that you have described? I don't even believe it exists.

[Bravelurker]

Watching reality TV and seeing not very bright people win used to make me think like the Op.

I don't watch that stuff anymore, as it's too depressing.

[DippyAvocado]

As a generalisation, I have to say I agree with you. It starts early on. At my fairly standard middle-England comp, to be "clever" was social death. The popular kids were the ones who started drinking early or the ones who were good at sports.

I think it links with the way that being an "intellectual " is viewed a bit cynically.

Agree with this too.

[chioccioladicioccolato]

Watching reality TV and seeing not very bright people win used to make me think like the Op.

It starts with kids tv. My kids went through a phase of watching German kids tv and the educational content compared to bbc was far higher. There were e.g. many science programs aimed at kids, both cartoon and documentary type, the game show type programs were scientific/technical.

[Hamsterdancer]

I dont think your wrong. One of my children loves school and learning shes even teaching herself languages outside of school. My other two however dont appreciate school at all and just seem to see it as what you have to do to get a job.