To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

[goodfornothinggnome]

Hmm. I can see what you mean, because peoples explanation to their children is often based on the fact that having an education will make it somewhat easier to get a decently paid job however, I believe you have oversimplified the whole situation.

So very many people do judge on levels and area of education, regardless of salary expectation.

[yyyyxxxx]

don't agree Lady, I think that view is ofen repeated, but really the general study at GCSE provides a broad enough base! E.g. I don't see why people who are not interested in Maths or Science or whatever should be forced to study it at "A" levels. I did science and maths at GCSE level and have quite a broad understanding as a result!

[MariaNovella]

SmarmyMrMime - about two decades ago there was a lot of conversation about the knowledge economy, being a service focused country. “Menial” (ie manual labour and manufacturing) were going to be outsourced to other countries with a less educated workforce.

It hasn’t worked and it’s pretty obvious why - all countries have their share of citizens who need non cerebral jobs. The arrogance was breathtaking...

[yyyyxxxx]

not sure about the narrow subjects Smarmy - young people have access to amazing subjects now. You can do Photography at "A" level now, imagine! When I was young it was history or geography! But of course they are tested beyond the bounds of sanity.

narrow working class survivalism - you have a point. middle class "getting on" another point. but few value the life of the mind or the heart. perhaps thats human nature but its defintely worse in some ways here. other countries value goodness and spirituality (say, Portugal) or the Arts (say, France). What we value is getting some good "A" levels and becoming a Surveyor.

A bit cliche I know, but in the spirit of the OPs post with which I sympathise

.

[bellinisurge]

Ha ha. Live by the word twat etc etc. It's one of my fave insults so I must be one.

[yyyyxxxx]

if you can't talk about the subject of education without "referencing" (only a total twat would use that language ) Brexit, you must be a Remoaner.

[SmarmyMrMime]

I've worked across my county in a variety of schools, and there is a significant element of culture in white, working class towns, of not rising above your station, of not needing an education to get by, because everyone else in your family managed... except a couple of generations back, it didn't matter nearly so much because you could have a job for life down the pit. Now you do need it.

These are familes who've had a very limited range of experiences. They rarely need to travel more than a few miles because their small town contains most of what they need and all their social connections. Occasionally they venture to the nearest seedy sea-side town or the nearest city. If they do go abroad, it's to the resorts that are basically Blackpool with reliable weather. I've had kids be incredulous that I've driven more than 5 miles to work from another town.

Where life is a grind to keep existing it will crush out the energy and the opportunities to better yourself, even if it's the bus fare to the nearest town to go to the nearest free musuem, or having the energy to walk to the library when you're working multiple jobs to get by. Parents may have low education skills often including undiagnosed difficulties such as dyslexia and be unable to offer much support to their children. There is also a lot of pride and saving face. So many times at parent's evening, the conversation has started with me being told by the parent that they hated/ was no good at my subject.

The hardest type of student to teach is the affluent, arrogant one who knows he has a guarenteed job in daddy's business. They are much rarer, but schools in affluent bubbles do have a lazy entitled contingent who expect the world to spoon feed them. The current teach to the test system where teachers can not allow pupils to fail does a lot to feed that and is a major factor in the crisis of teacher retention.

Of course it isn't everyone in England, but there are significant sub-cultures who don't value education, either at all or just for its utilitarian functions in getting a job rather than as a rounded individual.

It's no co-incidence that youth mental health has declined as the curriculum has become more narrowly focused on"academic" subjects and on the outcomes of assessments. It's not the only factor, but it is significant.

From what I understand from Irish family, there is a stronger culture of education for self betterment as mass affluence is comparatively recent over the last 20-30 years. The curriculum does remain broader through the secondary years. When I travelled in India, there was a lot of aspiration and people self-studying at night schools to earn a better place in society for their children's futures.

[yyyyxxxx]

er, not really *MariaNovella". People have been thinking about education for centuries. It goes back even to Plato you know .... Only twatty reductionists and so forth blab on about Brexit at every unrelated opporunity on MN. Its called opportunism ....

Hopefully moving on to the subject in hand ...

[MariaNovella]

Nail technicians? Eyebrow threaders?

[MarianneM]

Yes, definitely!

'The English are a nation of shopkeepers!'

Or should that be entrepreneurs or Instagram influencers?

[MariaNovella]

Brexit and education (or rather lack thereof) are intimate bedfellows. It’s quite hard to discuss education without referencing Brexit.

[yyyyxxxx]

I wish people would get off their brexit/remoaner soapbox and stick to the original question.

[CostanzaG]

How I have ignored poverty? I've acknowledged it's an issue. I'm saying it's not the only issue.

Brexit will have an impact on HE applications but we're not talking about general applications were talking about widening participation. Brexit isn't a concern in that respect.

I didn't preach I presented facts - people find facts reassuring especially as there is a high amount of misinformation out there related to student finance.

You can keep nitpicking and generally misinterpreting my posts but everything I have said is either factual or back up by research and evidence.

[BoaCons]

I never understood the anti-middle class bias. Of course the middle-class is actually v interesting in this country - where the arts lie, musicianship etc etc. After all, the chances of you being an amazing musician is nearly zero if you ain't from the middle class!

However, when the 'middle class' thing is simply - you have marriage + kids so you can then propel them in 'education' so they can have a nice 'uni' degree and a nice mortgage and a nice marriage and nice children ... you start to understand why its become a pejorative term!

George Orwell said "Education is the new God" and he was prophetic, certainly. Your character, your courage, your spirit take a poor third place. Personally, when parents tell me "Johnny went to x university" I couldn't be less interested. It means nothing, these days.

[bellinisurge]

If you can't see the concerns people in poverty have about the cost of HE and it's connection to Brexit, you aren't paying enough attention. All the answers may be in your bubble but dismissing financial concerns as being only a small factor misses the point. I hope that when you are reassuring people that student debt isn't debt, you are listening to them and not preaching at them.

[CostanzaG]

How does it make you poor having
Students on the current system are paying back less a month than those on previous systems because the repayment threshold is higher. These students will score more favourably than those who paid £3k tuition fees.

[MariaNovella]

If Brexit actually happens and UK businesses have to train our own rather than importing them all and expecting other countries to educate their workforces, that would be a plus.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the policy of not investing in proper training of British citizens and importing ready trained citizens from other countries was a ludicrous idea that by and large led us to Brexit, I fear that Brexit will not resolve the problem as it is now too late just to send the foreigners home and train up our own workforce: we lack qualified people to do the jobs, let alone to find time for teaching and training.

[CostanzaG]

Not as patronising as your suggestion that me pointing out inequalities in HE was just my personal interpretation of some empirical data.

I understand in great detail all the issues surrounding applications to HE. I've studied it for 12 years. It was to fucus if my masters and my PhD . I'm an active researcher in the subject and I teach it at postgraduate level. I really do know what I'm talking about. You may disagree but I'm presenting facts or results from years of academic research.

I do hate the term 'saddled with debt' . It's not impartial or free from judgement. It doesn't help people make informed decisions.

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

But it's not a debt in the traditional sense. It is entirely income contingent and it doesn't have an impact on your credit score

But it makes you poor and affects things like affordability calculations when you go for a mortgage.

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education

I think you are right to an extent. I can't comment as to whether this is peculiarly English thing as opposed to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish (although I believe the Scots do have a tradition of valuing education) but when I see the focus on STEM and computing at the cost of humanities, or the fact that our tuition fees are so high (because why should less educated people subsidise the more educated - answer, they don't, and it's in the country's interest to have well educated people) and the fact that people think MFL are a waste of time, then I reluctantly have to agree with you.

Also the fact that many businesses won't train their staff or resent investing in them. If Brexit actually happens and UK businesses have to train our own rather than importing them all and expecting other countries to educate their workforces, that would be a plus.

[bellinisurge]

I agree @Amongstthetallgrass .

[clairemcnam]

Sorry didn't realise

[Amongstthetallgrass]

The Government doesn’t value its own education system.

However not having a thougher education doesn’t mean you cannot prosper or be a good human being. Both DH and I never went further than secondary comp level and we own our business.

[CostanzaG]

I was referring to Bellini not you Claire

[bellinisurge]

I understand @CostanzaG . And it is rather patronising to suggest I don't. What I am saying is that the financial concerns people have add weight to any other concerns people have. And more so now than ever before. It is even harder to get people to invest the time and money in HE when it obviously saddles you with debt. I know you hate that expression but sadly actual people in the real world with real money worries still use it.