To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

[CostanzaG]

Do you...... you clearly don’t understand how student finance and funding works!

[itsinchicago]

Yes I do - but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I believe, as many do, that a university education should be provided free of charge and funded by the government - as it used to be, and is in many other countries.

[woodhill]

Agree needs about lack of general knowledge and the world around us particularly Geographical locations.

[CostanzaG]

I never said I agreed with it....although I don’t think it should be completely free to students but I dislike how it’s become a commodity.
I was just pointing out that degrees aren’t free. They’ve never been free it’s just the source of funding that has changed.

[itsinchicago]

Well there you are then. We have answered the original question. A degree is now a commodity and obtaining one is a means to an end rather than the simple aspiration to better oneself by expanding one's knowledge.

[CostanzaG]

Except it isn’t ...and I should have been clearer on that. It’s viewed by some people as a commodity but they’re wrong.
Some students think they are buying a degree. Except they aren’t, they are paying for the opportunity to study for a degree. Some think they’re paying for a graduate job. Except again, they aren’t . They’re paying to develop skills that will help them get that job.

There are still some people who view education as the opportunity to expand ones knowledge.

[TipTopTimTams]

I'm English! I value education! I also value other things like my children enjoying their childhood, sports, music, arts.

And the point of your post is?

[Raspberry88]

A degree is now a commodity and obtaining one is a means to an end rather than the simple aspiration to better oneself by expanding one's knowledge.

I'm not sure that it was anything other than a means to an end. Studying has always been for a purpose. No one studies medicine, for example, just so that they know things but so that they can apply that knowledge in a practical and useful way. What better end than expanding ones knowledge in order to better oneself by improving chances of employment, financial security etc etc.

[itsinchicago]

Raspberry88 what would you say in answer to the OP then? Not that they've been back to the thread since lunchtime.

[MoonStarsSun]

Purples But then even with your viewpoint, the "by-product" could (or should) be well-educated children. That's not a bad thing?! And to "not focus on what they [children] will or will not become" could be seen (on the other side of the coin) as neglectful or not allowing children to dream or aspire or aim. There are plenty of parents who give not a shit about their children who would happily claim to be "nurturing children as children". (in other words, leaving it to the government).

In a way I think what you are suggesting is coming from a very privileged position, that which children can just "be" children with nobody needing to think about tiresome things like careers. It's good for young children (of course) but how do you/at what point do you then explain where that education would fit in with the real world of bills and having money to live on, let alone luxuries which many people enjoy such as holidays or pursuing their interest in (say) art or music? Earning a living is a fact of life.

[MoonStarsSun]

Bookmum in my opinion (rightly or wrongly?!) the SATS show if/where the school is failing in terms of national standards. If there were no national standards and no SATS then how could a school's progress ever be measured? It isn't designed (I don't think) to identify individual children who are struggling. It shows if the school is struggling to educate the children effectively compared to expected national standards.

[Chloemol]

You are talking tosh. Everybody is learning all the time about lots of different things. Education doesn’t finish when you leave school does it? Lots of people read about things that interest them, be it history, English, childcare etc etc, and learn. Lots of older people do degrees via the ou in subjects they love and are interested in because they can, not just for work. People study as part of their work, because they enjoy what they do and what to learn more.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Education is not the filling of a pail. It's the lighting of a fire.

I think education in England is more geared to filling the pail so it can be emptied on to test papers, than lighting fires. Which can be dangerous.

YANBU OP.

[bellinisurge]

I'm from the pre tuition fees era. Fewer people went to university. I was from a poor background and got a full grant.
I think that free university education is a good thing as long as there are alternatives such as apprenticeships in a wide range of subjects.

[CostanzaG]

But the government can't support a mass higher education system. You may have gone to university despite coming from s disadvantaged background but many,many didn't.

[bellinisurge]

@CostanzaG , I don't get it. Only people with the highest grades got in regardless of their background.
I agree that more work should be done to support people who don't have the impoverished but supportive parents that I had.

[solittletime]

moonstars the problem is the rigidity of the sats format and the way it takes over pretty much a while year of learning in yr6.
Children aren't just being assessed at the end of the year. It's a constant practise assessment and marking that puts them under undue pressure. Going from the children with aspirational parents who are tutored and "encouraged " to those more disadvantaged who watch their classmates soaring through levels of attainment while they falter behind, already from 8yrs old starting to feel stupid and unworthy.

Then if you take a group out who struggle with reading you can't just engage them in some books/stories etc to maybe broaden that horizon a bit. You'll be going out of class to practise more dreaded comprehension questions while the rest if the class enjoy a music/topic lesson.

[Tumbleweed101]

I like to learn for the sake of it. I’m self taught in some things and have done courses in things I’m interested in.

My children have picked up in it because they really focus on learning things they are interested in in far more depth than they’d be taught in school.

[InternetArgument]

School is not education. School is assessment, adjustment and so on. If it is preparation for work, it’s a mystery what that work might be.

Has anyone else employed recent graduates? Don’t.

[Tartanwarrior]

Do people really have a right to study a subject for its own sake and for enjoyment if it comes out of the public purse.


Yes, of course!
Obviously depends what you're talking about. If it's learning French cooking for fun, then no. If it's taking drama at A level, just because they love it, then yes.

In my job, I come across many young people from other countries, and generally speaking, they tend to value education.

[CostanzaG]

bellin no they didn't. There were ( and still are to some extent) deep rooted inequalities and only a very small percentage of the population went to university. It was an elite system.
Saying that people with the highest grades went to uni is a very simplistic view. That generally didn't happen. For example, in general those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds didn't go, they didn't even apply despite meeting the entry requirements.

[bellinisurge]

Just not my experience @CostanzaG

[WatershedMoment]

Just look at Corrie . The only intellectual people are painted as oddballs - laughed at and rolly eyed at: Ken (boring snob) and Roy (good hearted but boring wierdo).

[CostanzaG]

It's not just my opinion. It's fact Bellini your experience is not representative of the general population.

I've studied the data for years

Why do you think the government and universities invest so much in widening participation?

[Bagpuss5]

Aren't engineers in Germany Herr Doctor (or something like that) whereas here they are just engineers , so the same as heating engineers etc.
I think it stems from our class system where toffs studied the classics at oxford and then got jobs running things or top finance jobs, plebs learned manual jobs.
Thankfully physics is now a fashionable subject but toff physics geeks still go into banking/investment.