To think in general English people do not value education?

[clairemcnam]

It always dismays me how little education seems to be valued in England. Lots of people say they do value education, but in closer questioning this is nearly always a utilitarian approach to education.
So education is valued to get you a good job, or help you earn more money - to help you achieve something else.
But relatively few people seem to value education for its own sake.

@CostanzaG , siblings and I went to University or polytechnic. First generation in our family to do so. It was inconceivable to our family that we wouldn't if we made the grades. And we were expected (with parental help) to work out alternatives if higher education didn't pan out.
At the risk of being a cliche, my bil came from a background where he had to sleep in the kitchen because their tenement was so small. He, like us, got support from parents and state aid to go to university.
In my view, too many people go to university, straining the cost for individuals and there are insufficient training alternatives away from university. You don't fix this by going to a university if it isn't for you.

I have read on here so many times people saying that they wasted their time at school as they learned lots of things they never used again. That shows they have a totally utilitarian approach to education.

Children are forced to go to school and learn specific subjects whether they enjoy them or not. If you are going to be forced to learn a subject you do not enjoy, I don't see the desire that at least that subject will be of use to you in your future life a bad one.

I learn all the time but I expand my knowledge in subjects of my choosing, not ones I have no interest in.

A great teacher helps you to enjoy testing yourself even in a subject that is dull and useless for later life.

I don't deny that your experience is valid and true Bellini but anecdotal data doesn't make fact.

The facts are that inequality exists. First generation students, students from lower economic backgrounds and some ethnic groups were significantly underrepresented higher education.....and they still are to some extent.

There are groups of young people not going to university despite having the appropriate qualifications. When asked about the reasons behind this decision they specifically say ' people like me don't do to places like that' or the have a cultural aversion to debt .....this is particularly true of white working class communities.

Sadly, in life, you have to do boring stuff like cleaning the loo. Life isn't all about doing stuff you like. It's also about having strategies for getting through the stuff you don't like.

The "people like me don't go to university " attitude was prevalent when I went in the 80s and my siblings went in the 70s. You don't fix this by shoehorning people into university who will get nothing out of it other than debt.
It's about support at home and if that isn't there pastoral support at school.

That attitude is still evident today. I carried out some research last year that showed just that. My PhD found the same.

So what's the solution....we revert back to an elite system where only the privileged and a handful of lucky disadvantaged people get to experience higher education?

How does hard work = luck?
I accept that young people need the kind of moral and emotional support that I got if they are first generation university applicants. But I don't think that shoe horning everyone into university as some sort of fake equality prize is the way forward.
Better training and apprenticeship opportunities and not just in manual labour type work is the way forward. My sil is bright academically but for a variety of reasons, some health related, some social, university turned out not to be for her. She went to work for a bank and is now a fully qualified accountant because the bank invested in her.

I entirely accept that my experience is anecdotal. However, you have interpreted empirical data one way and drawn a conclusion from it. I am suggesting that yours is not the only conclusion to draw.

Definitely true in general. I grew up in Australia. Most people from migrant backgrounds worked very hard to make sure their children got a good education and expected their children to develop intellectual interests of some kind. Most English decent Australians just stuck their kids in whichever school was convenient (usually a state school) and then pretty much just ignored their intellectual development.

Maybe you are mixing with the wrong kind of people, perhaps you should get out and meet more (better?) people

Bellini there is no interpretation of the data. It speaks for itself. It's a well known fact... One that has been extensively researched by a number of well respected academics. Do you really disagree with the fact that there are well known, deep rooted inequalities with the higher education system? Do you disagree with people who have dedicated their entire careers to addressing these inequalities?

What I do interpret are the reasons behind these inequalities and I make suggestions and recommendations about how we can address them. It's accepted fact that these inequalities exist....no interpretation needed!

"But I don't think that shoe horning everyone into university as some sort of fake equality prize is the way forward.
Better training and apprenticeship opportunities and not just in manual labour type work is the way forward."

I totally agree. Fortunately Sheffield City Council in collaboration with Sheffield University have been pretty forward thinking in this respect with the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre.

Bellini current data shows that white working class men are significantly underrepresented in higher education. That's a fact.
Why do you think this is if it's not inequality on a societal level?

I’m a primary teacher and I agree with comments that have been made about the curriculum currently in England. It’s not designed to help us foster a “lifelong love of learning”.

The parents of children at my (very naice) village primary do value school but not at the expense of holidays, where there is a good childminder, how many golden book awards little Johnny has got.

My dc go to our local primary in a rather less affluent area. The attitude of the majority of the parents there is very much that education is to be done in school and if there are difficulties then it’s the teachers’ jobs to sort it and the parents don’t need to bother. In a year of 60, about 5 of us mums regularly attend reading workshops of SATs information sessions etc. I think that’s a shocking percentage (especially as many of the mums are still hanging about chatting by the gate when the sessions finish so clearly not rushing off elsewhere).

My husband is an academic and also involved in our local peoples’ vote campaign. He’s had some really aggressive responses from people who don’t agree with him which is horrid, but the insult people have thrown at him most frequently is that he’s an academic. Make of that what you will!

constanza I went to University with a full grant. I would not have chosen to go now when it meant debt.

That's interesting Claire why would that make a difference? If you don't mind me asking?

We value a list of results with high grades attached but we don’t value the act of being educated. Hence online essay writing companies have flourished.

Although it is easy for someone to say they wouldn't pay for something they were given for free

Because I would not have wanted to get into debt. I do have a fear of debt. My DP is even worse about avoiding debt. We have always tried to save something, even when we earned minimum wage. But I grew up seeing bailiffs at the next door neighbours and being told not to answer the door at certain times in case it was someone there about an unpaid bill.
I come from a very poor background, and none of my friends even stayed on beyond 16 at school, never mind went to university. And I am not in a well paid job. I doubt the debt would have been worth it in terms of earning power. I have saved up and done a diploma whilst working full-time, and I would probably now skip university totally and just do a vocational qualification while working.
And as is obvious from my thread, I love learning and would have and continue to try and learn new things. But being financially okay matters too.

It kind of reminds me of when I was weighing up whether to do a master's 10 years ago and wanted to get an idea of whether it help me in the job market enough to justify the fees. I read so much whimsical crap about it being worth doing for the sake of it even if I don't financially benefit and just thought that's all well and good if you have money to burn.

Claire yours is a familiar story. The biggest issue we have is the fact that it's referred to as debt when it has more in common with a tax.

constanza I understand about the tuition fees not being paid back until you earn a certain amount. But you still need to house and feed yourself and pay transport and a laptop for 3 years - more than 3 years for some courses.
My DP actually works with poorer university students and many are working long hours in paid jobs on top of study. It is not easy. And quite a few drop out. And my parents would not have been able to afford to subsidise me at all.
A one-year diploma is much more accessible. I have 2 diplomas that I have completed while working full-time. Both times it was tough, but it was only for 9 months.

It's not a tax. It's debt. I too have a fear of debt and would have been put off university if I had to go into heavy debt to get there. My parental support and strategy aid meant I could go. That wouldn't be there now. It's more divisive and off putting now for people in poverty for that reason.

State aid not strategy aid.