Friend called my child's behaviour psychotic

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

I bumped into a friend and her 3 year old with my DC in the park this afternoon. We met when our DC became friends at nursery and used to meet up every 2-3 weeks but after she changed her work hours it gradually tailed off. She is pretty rigid with her DC and ensures they adhere to every single rule. I'm more relaxed but definitely don't let them run riot. For example - if no one else was in the park, I wouldn't have a problem with my DC climbing up the slide, if they see puddles I don't mind if they splash in them, if they want to climb trees, collect rocks, stroke dogs - that's fine. My friend always looked shocked and told her DC a firm no to joining in.

My three year old DD is very unpredictable and I have been concerned about her behaviour for a while. Her older sister has HFA and I wonder if she too is on the spectrum, or if she could have ADHD. The incidents that prompted my friend to call her behaviour 'psychotic' were:

DD climbed to the top of a spider web type net and called me to wave. I waved and then 10 seconds later she called me again, I turned round and she leapt off the top of it at me It was high and luckily I wasn't holding the baby and managed to catch her. She has form for doing this - leaping from the top of the stairs at me without warning, jumping off the sofa onto my back when I'm changing baby on the floor. She seems to have no comprehension of what she's done wrong afterwards.

After the park we were all walking to the car park together. We were waiting for a green man to cross the road and I was adjusting my dogs lead as she was tangled and I heard the click of the pushchair break. DD had taken it off and if I hadn't been blocking the wheel with my foot then baby would have rolled into the road. Again, DD appears vacant when told off.

My friend messaged me this evening to say something needs to be done about DD, that her behaviour is psychotic and she doesn't feel safe having her DD around her. She knows I have approached the GP before but without nursery reporting issues they won't refer her.

AIBU to feel totally at a loss as to what to do with DD? I have a feeling this isn't the first friend I've lost over her behaviour. Consequences make no difference to her whatsoever. She hurts me or at least one of her siblings daily without fail due to not thinking through her actions. She's almost 4 now and her speech is pretty much incomprehensible to everyone except me and her siblings but she doesn't care. If we do gluing or painting at home, she'll just cover herself in it or pour it all over the paper. We can't have play doh because she eats it. I can't leave her alone for a minute because she's always so impulsive - I've caught her mid air about to jump on the dog from the kitchen table, stopped her pinning the baby down numerous times. She just looks vacant when being reprimanded and carries on the way she is.

She has been under SALT for two years; she's nearly 4.

You can bypass the GP by asking the health visitor for an assessment, ask for an ASQ SE(ages and stages, social and emotional) assessment. HV can refer directly to the child development team very long process so good to get the ball rolling now. I'm surprised the speech and language therapist hasn't picked up on it, they can also usually refer to the child development team if they think there is social/emotional things going on.

I am a SALT therapist and have a child with ADHD and ASD. What is your daughters behavior like in therapy sessions? Has she voiced any concerns? I would go to gp for a paediatrician referral. In Australia as a parent if you want s referral you get one.

firmer I meant firmer with HCP not your daughter!

What a difficult situation, OP. Seek help and in the meantime abandon the 'relaxed' parenting thing as it sounds like it might not be the best strategy for your small people.

I have been to the GP whine, they said no even though I detailed her behaviour. She doesn't seem to intend to hurt anyone a lot of the time - she will pin down the baby for hugs but just won't stop even if the baby is screaming. She grinds her teeth when she's doing this so much that they're chipped.

In the SALT sessions she will participate but looks for distractions - asking for drinks, trying to talk about other things. She is nervous of the games they play and has hidden under the table. I.e. there's a shark one where it might close it's mouth and she hid from it. The SALT didn't say anything about her behaviour.

I disagree that it's the way I communicate that's the problem. I've tried more than one technique and it doesn't improve anything. She understands what she should and shouldn't do but acts before she thinks.

So clearly you feel there really is a problem, which certainly does appear to be the case; are you going to seek a formal referral to the appropriate assessment services?

I’ve just read your other thread too, OP.

Bearing that in mind I think you might need to consider that genetics are playing a huge part in your DDs behaviour, along with trauma, possible abandonment and (sorry) somewhat lax parenting.

Your friend has been incredibly brave to send that message and you need to act swiftly and decisively to get your DD the help she desperately needs. That you desperately need.

Did you see the pp where the dds behaviours exactly mirrored your dds, and they completely changed their diet?/ it worked. It's something you can start immediately and cut out sugars/sweets/colours etc.

I know people say its crap, but I did go similar (not on the same scale) and the behaviour did become appalling at times, once DC was old enough to express this they actually refuse such things themselves because they feel so vile and out of control. It still happens now on occasion. I lost count of the number of times I heard DC come crashing to the bottom of the stairs (with various injuries gathered on the way), even went onto a roof when only about 7/8. Experienced biting too, and to the extreme the difference between school setting and home, to the point I wasn't believed because behaviour was so markedly different between the two settings.

We now pretty much have all cooked from scratch and very few sweets/colours. I'm not saying I had the same, just that it clearly can play a huge part.
A significant difference was that explaining made a huge difference, by learning what was expected in terms of behaviour for each setting (but only as age appropriate, so too young wasn't possible, but improved/more effective with age iyswim).

Do what's within your control whilst searching other options, and the language issues seems the obvious route to strike put with first.

She's too young for sweets anyway but someone gave her a fruit shoot once and she was absolutely demented so I've controlled her diet strictly since. It makes a difference for sure but doesn't make it all better.

Stifledlife Is exactly right. What does she have for breakfast? What type of cereal? For example it isn't cocopops or fruitloops is it? I've known people with children diagnosed with ADHD and they give their child coke during the day to drink, or sweet fizzy drink and rubbish foods such as the cereal I mentioned. Usually it is a combination of poor/enabling parenting (e.g you literally SUGGESTED to your daughter to fill the pot with cold water and tip it on her sibling's head - maybe she wouldn't have even thought to do it if you hadn't actually suggested she [not] do it) and absolute garbage being given to them. I don't believe the vast majority of children with ADD/ADHD/ODD/ASD and or any other created acronym truly have those. And my opinion is based on experience of children/working in schools, and also speaking to GPs. I have a very, very strong belief in discipline (which to me is proven more as time goes on and the more I read about all this behaviour that has arisen in epidemic proportions over the last couple of decades, however it is not popular on here to discuss this particular discipline or lament that teachers can no longer use discipline, so I will leave it there.

That doesn’t sound like psychotic behaviour. It sounds like she has difficulty understanding consequences/sequencing events.

Lunafort I do agree with what you say about the propensity to say 'it's ADHD, spectrum issue etc' when the issue of effective discipline has not been fully explored first.

Behaviour can be absolutely appalling and shocking JUST due to poor discipline and consequences and result in incredibly awful behaviour including: running off into the road, hurting siblings etc - none of which necessarily a neuro issue, but behaviour that's gone wild due to lack of firmly applied boundaries. So whilst in this case it could well be that the DD does have one of these conditions, I also think that 50% of it could be due to the parenting.

I'm totally accepting that if a child has one of these conditions that the 'standard' approach would probably simply not work or not work as well and need significant adjustment to speak to the understanding and ways of interpreting of that child but bearing in mind that many many parents can't parent their neurotypical children effectively, add that into the mix of a child with say ADHD and it's going to make for some even more difficult behaviour if your basics aren't right (if that makes sense).

Luna is right and as I pointed out, OP led her daughter to doing the thing she didn't want her to do - that was entirely down to ineffectual parenting - not taking the opportunity to stop her when she took a jug to the sink/bath to fill it with cold water had an inevitable conclusion that was, actually, entirely avoidable. And the result of each negative interaction like this will increase the DDs ADHD-related frustration and outbursts (if that's what she has), and only make things worse for OP and DD.

I think 'discipline' has both a bad name in general and a wide context which makes it difficult to use as it's open to interpretation. For me (in respect to children and young people in this case) it should be recognised that boundaries and limitations when provided reasonably and respectfully and with love, to children, make them feel SAFE and secure. They know where they stand and within that framework receive all the love and care that they could possibly need - it's not about punitive punishment.

Yeah funny that. My DS can't stand coke or crappy cereals, loves your basic meat and veg type foods and fruits and drinks water yet was still trying to kill himself through his impulsivity on a daily basis.

ADHD is an actual structural difference in the brain, it shows up in an MRI.

The only thing that helped was medication.

Whilst I am aware that in some cases it can be poor diet it is really damaging to parents of kids who are doing things 'right' to be told it's down to them. It isn't always.

Despite the deniers ADHD is real, does exist and is medical fact.

However lack of sequencing, not understanding consequences etc can also be symptomatic of autism too - the two can be comorbid as they are in my son (along with learning disabilities- this week we're celebrating as he's now working at a year 3 level in maths in year 9 at special school).

Diet and parenting can help. Some parents do this and it doesn't work. Blaming those parents is a really shitty thing to do.

Can't really call her a friend imo I'd suggest you see the go again and say what has been happening also have a word with the nursery teacher your still under the health visitor to age 5 so that may be a useful phone call also...

Try using positive instructions - they're easier to understand. "Climb down using every step" rather than "don't jump". "pour the water gently into the bath" rather than "don't throw the water into people's faces". Talk about the behaviour you do want to see. If your dd has communication difficulties this will make it easier for her.

Hello Helen

I have read the posts and particularly noted the mentions of diet and behavior, particularly your own.

I would suggest that you start with www.fedup.com.au and www.facebook.com/groups/380347182034474/2028585710543938/
The girls on the fb page will help you find a dietitian (I assume you are UK) who has been trained in proper elimination diet and challenges.

You are welcome to pm me and I will do my best to explain.

Also one thin that works with all three of mine - they tend to ignore the first word you say for some reason so I always start with their name, so "C don't do that" they will hear the whole instruction properly.

You mention her sister has HFA, do you receive any support for that and if so can you use those contacts to help get any advice on a referral if nursery aren't forthcoming?

And as for the friend... let her go. Aside from the horrid attitude and open judgement towards your daughter, I honestly don't think I could be friends with somebody who wouldn't let a child jump in puddles.

A 3 year old can't be psychotic or psychopathic! YANBU

But she does need help and I know from personal experience how hard it can be to get it.
She sounds a lot like my DS in that she's very impulsive. He's been diagnosed with ADHD aged 7.

If a 'friend' of mine called either of my children psychotic, she'd have been pulling her teeth out of her arse

That said, your child's behaviour is unpredictable and sounds incredibly draining. You need to push for some help, either through the GP, HV or similar, it's only a matter of time before one of you is seriously injured

Tiredness is definitely a trigger for dc2 she was fine at the park today. On the way home she cycled up a disablity ramp to the person's house. Then minutes later stopped a rolled over a dog poo (twice) bleurgh!