Friend called my child's behaviour psychotic

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

I bumped into a friend and her 3 year old with my DC in the park this afternoon. We met when our DC became friends at nursery and used to meet up every 2-3 weeks but after she changed her work hours it gradually tailed off. She is pretty rigid with her DC and ensures they adhere to every single rule. I'm more relaxed but definitely don't let them run riot. For example - if no one else was in the park, I wouldn't have a problem with my DC climbing up the slide, if they see puddles I don't mind if they splash in them, if they want to climb trees, collect rocks, stroke dogs - that's fine. My friend always looked shocked and told her DC a firm no to joining in.

My three year old DD is very unpredictable and I have been concerned about her behaviour for a while. Her older sister has HFA and I wonder if she too is on the spectrum, or if she could have ADHD. The incidents that prompted my friend to call her behaviour 'psychotic' were:

DD climbed to the top of a spider web type net and called me to wave. I waved and then 10 seconds later she called me again, I turned round and she leapt off the top of it at me It was high and luckily I wasn't holding the baby and managed to catch her. She has form for doing this - leaping from the top of the stairs at me without warning, jumping off the sofa onto my back when I'm changing baby on the floor. She seems to have no comprehension of what she's done wrong afterwards.

After the park we were all walking to the car park together. We were waiting for a green man to cross the road and I was adjusting my dogs lead as she was tangled and I heard the click of the pushchair break. DD had taken it off and if I hadn't been blocking the wheel with my foot then baby would have rolled into the road. Again, DD appears vacant when told off.

My friend messaged me this evening to say something needs to be done about DD, that her behaviour is psychotic and she doesn't feel safe having her DD around her. She knows I have approached the GP before but without nursery reporting issues they won't refer her.

AIBU to feel totally at a loss as to what to do with DD? I have a feeling this isn't the first friend I've lost over her behaviour. Consequences make no difference to her whatsoever. She hurts me or at least one of her siblings daily without fail due to not thinking through her actions. She's almost 4 now and her speech is pretty much incomprehensible to everyone except me and her siblings but she doesn't care. If we do gluing or painting at home, she'll just cover herself in it or pour it all over the paper. We can't have play doh because she eats it. I can't leave her alone for a minute because she's always so impulsive - I've caught her mid air about to jump on the dog from the kitchen table, stopped her pinning the baby down numerous times. She just looks vacant when being reprimanded and carries on the way she is.

I asked her to pour it in the bath and warned that if she tipped it on her siblings she'd be removed from the bath and miss out on pudding. She loves baths and wanted to stay in. She loved the pudding that was cooking. She still tried to throw the cold water in their faces and shows no emotion when I follow through on consequences

So you make the suggestion by telling her NOT to do something that she then does?

What would you have done if you did have the baby in your arms? Dropped the baby to catch her?

Deffently push gp for a referral, my dd2 was referred at the age of 18 months as her older sister was already diagnosed with Aspergers, it turned out dd2 was more severely autistic than her sister. My dd is similar to yours in a lot of ways, she doesn’t do what she’s told and doesn’t really care about consequences, she eats everything even if it’s not edible and when she was younger she had no fear of things like heights and jumping off of things. My dd is now 13 and her behaviour is still similar , some things have got easier and some have got worse due to her size.

You're right Heather- I think I have just naturally adapted to the behaviour, which is what's needed anyway as a diagnosis wouldn't make any difference. The way my friend approached it was that it's the letting her jump in puddles and so on that has led to the other behaviour.

For those saying never let her climb, surely you can see that if she's drawn to climb but is never allowed to then she's going to do it anyway, but more dangerously? She understands she's allowed to climb trees under supervision, she understands only being allowed to climb the slide at certain times. It isn't her lack of understanding that leads to the behaviour, it's that she's completely impulsive and doesn't think through what will happen.

Can you ask for a meeting with her key worker and manager without your dd? It sounds like the nursery aren't very good!

I haven’t RFT but in case it has not yet been mentioned one quick way to acces services may be to self refer to speech therapy, this will lead to an initial speech assessment and if the therapist feels other areas need assessing can lead to further support.

@HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed

You sound like an amazing mum. You've got 3 kids, 2 with SN and one baby. You must be knackered, and fighting through a confusing and way under-resourced healthcare system ain't gonna help.

Your friend was ignorant and mean. Her comment betrays a complete lack of understanding or empathy for you, your daughter and people (like me) who have suffered with psychosis, as well as blindness to the fact that you have clearly been pushing for help. It's a sad reflection of how a lot of people see both SN amd mental health, but it's her issue and not yours. You don't have to take it on board, so as far as possible give it back to her and be kind to yourself. Don't know if this has been mentioned already, but are there any meetups for parents of kids with SN near you? Or failing that, online support? Might be good for your self esteem to be around people who understand and won't be judgemental.

Empathy for you in spades.

This was my youngest son when he was the same age.

He climbed up anything.. I mean anything. Buildings, spiral staircases. I had to keep my eyes on him all the time.
He used to lick bannisters in public places.
He used to throw furniture at my oldest son's friends.
He used to lay traps to trip me up and kill me.. Really. He would tell me he was trying to kill me.
I caught him just before he stuck a spoon in the dog's eye "to scoop it out".
He had no impulse control at all, or understanding of consequences .. for instance he would throw rocks or mud at other children and not understand why they didn't want to play with him.

Punishment meant nothing to him.. he would sit on the stairs in time out and actively enjoy it.

I went down the medical route and when I finally saw the head honcho at the hospital they said there was nothing much they could do but put him on ritalin (as he was climbing on the windowsills in the doctors office!). He was 3.5. I couldn't do that, so the ball was back in my court.

I started reading, and found that artificial colours and some preservatives (particularly sodium benzoate) caused problems with a lot of children and that some colours were banned in other countries because of behavioural problems they caused.

I read labels. I spent hours in supermarket aisles reading and finding alternatives for everyday products. I went organic where possible with anything processed, and it took about 3 months to get it all out of his system, but he was a changed child. Still adventurous but the manic edge was gone.
I found out that he was so sensitive to E numbers that 1 small pack of haribo (about 6 sweets) would make him revert for 36 hours.

Once I knew what to look for it was easy. I always kept treats he could have and we would do party bag "swaps" so he didn't feel he was missing out. We treated it like a nut allergy, and other parents helped. The school helped. Life was so much better when we sorted it.

I asked him how he felt when he had "colours" and he said "all churny inside", so I think it caused some kind of an adrenaline rush that went on and on.

You have my best wishes and huge sympathy. Unless you've been there you don't know how awful it is, but you WILL find an answer!

But by having more complicated ('grey') areas you're opening up the opportunity for her to find those rules too inconclusive /difficult to interpret to be easy enough for her to follow. You say 'you've adapted' but numerous people with more experience have pointed out that there are things that you could do differently which might help - I'm not sure you're hearing them? Forgive me if I'm wrong but just reacting to your last post at 09.57.

Perhaps your friend didn't mean literally that just letting her jump in puddles was leading to it (just spit-ballin' here) - perhaps she meant that overall your approach, communicating of boundaries/rules, managing of boundaries/rules and your instructions about them to your DD are, generally, 'weak' and not narrow and clear enough???

The pouring cold water thing. This is just not very good management of / parenting here in terms of boundary-setting (regardless of any issues but even more relevant when there is a child with behavioural issues)/ You said: This evening they were in the bath and she filled a pot with cold water. I asked her to pour it in the bath and warned that if she tipped it on her siblings she'd be removed from the bath and miss out on pudding. She loves baths and wanted to stay in. She loved the pudding that was cooking. She still tried to throw the cold water in their faces and shows no emotion when I follow through on consequences"

The SECOND she started to fill the pot with cold water I'd have said, tip that out in the sink IMMEDIATELY. So you could have stopped it, but you didn't, you almost led her to the act of throwing it on the other children by not being immediately firm STRAIGHT AWAY at the commencement of the act. So that's not helping you and it's not helping her by being, what is looking like, a bit wishy-washy.

shes’s completely impulsive and doesn’t think things through

This is why I suggested talking things through first so she doesn’t have to - I said about the stairs it also works with trees and climbing frames. “No jumping. We climb down trees”. As I said if you “don’t jump” when she’s already at the top she is probably hearing “jump” and you’ll be catching her within seconds.

I agree your parenting style doesn’t work with your dd and think you should try giving her strict instructions, choices between a and b.

any hypermobility?
asthma/allergies.
it is interesting she wont walk anywhere.
is it possible that walking is tiring so when at the park more likely to be impulsive.
Also dd nursery only allows them to play in a small area so she doesnt run as she does at the park. i think 3 is hard as they get tiredbut no longer nap.
Both my dc are similar to described. Their impulsiveness is/was mainly roads. But also occassionally biting/hitting. The need to touch everything in shops.
Exactly as described if you mention something you draw attention to it so eg i wouldnt put on Horrid Henry. But also if baking and dropped say nuts on the floor dc2 then wanted to put them in still, picked them up while i said no. I had to physically stop her. Which is often the case.
I think kids not sleeping well can cause them to behave in an adhd like way. But it can be very hard to get some kids to sleep well. And any variation so going away so they are overexcited or sleep in the car can have an knock on effect.
I think you probably do need to stop her climbing those sort of climbing frame. Explaining it is because they cannot be trusted. So just ones you can reach. Though tbh many are not safe if they choose to throw themselves. Maybe gymnastics so it is more padded?

I feel it is healthy for kids to really play, jump in muddy puddles, explore, get dirty, climb trees. Playing is learning, I could not be doing the strict ridged style your 'friend', is doing, stifling their play. Your dd is still little, her behaviour might be down to her not being able to communicate and frustration around that.

Please go to speech and language drop in at your hospital. It cod be fast track to community paed referral. Op sounds exhausted, nobody is the perfect parent, she has 3 young children.

It may also be that your dd is still developing. Some are more advanced than others, having speech difficulties is not going to make like easy for her.

It must be exhausting for you. Do push for help via your HV and GP and if nursery isn't fully on board look for another one. I got a diagnosis for DD2 aged 2 (language issues with her too amongst other things - we used Makaton which really helped). The relief of getting support was indescribable.

My eldest has ADHD and I think the trouble is that you are so used to that behaviour, you don't react like other people do.

We had a battle to get a diagnosis OP, and in the end did the same as a PP and got a private paed appointment that was in the region of £170. She was the local NHS consultant paed and transferred us over to the NHS system once she realised how much we were struggling.

There are sadly always other parents who react like your friend. I can't tell you how many indignant parents I had to deal with at the village school who were convinced that I was just a poor parent. Their little gems of "wisdom" just made my life even harder .

The issues seem to stem from your style of communication, as others have said. It will help to issue simple clearings tractions step at a time style. In saying she sounds like a budding psychopath I didn't mean to sound unkind. Her lack of email and lack of concern for consequences point to psychopathology. She isn't at all psychotic, psychosis is about altered perception of reality- seeing and hearing things that aren't there or having deluded thoughts.

I have known some very wonderful people who carry out good works in society and the community who are diagnosed psychopaths- it doesn't mean she developed evil behaviours. The point another person made here about setting boundaries sound appropriate advise as well, whether she has a diagnosis or not

Sorry, I meant to type 'will develope'

The issues seem to stem from your style of communication, as others have said. It will help to issue simple clear instructions step at a time style. In saying she sounds like a budding psychopath I didn't mean to sound unkind. Her lack of empathy and lack of concern for consequences point to psychopathology. She isn't at all psychotic, psychosis is about altered perception of reality- seeing and hearing things that aren't there or having deluded thoughts.

Do you ever say no to her and do you follow through with advised punishments OP?

Your so called 'friend's' comment was just nasty and uncalled for. I think you do need to push for an ASD assessment. My DS has HF ASD and was very similar at her age. He was a nightmare all day every day and we could not take our eyes off him for a second. He had language difficulties and no sense of danger at all.
I think you need to have a meeting with nursery staff. They must see that she displays unusual behaviour at nursery and developmentally is not at the same stage as her peers. Is the school for Sept attached to nursery? You should start to make them aware also. And yes to gathering evidence for an EHCP. She will need help at school as she is going to be very overwhelmed. It sounds very tough OP

Also for those making helpful suggestions sometimes you can't 'mould' them to fit in mainstream schooling. My son is in special school. I couldn't talk through impulses with him as they were split second - he had done it before a thought entered his head.

Dietary changes are worth a try but sometimes when it's neurological wiring that is the issue that won't work either.

For my son the only thing that worked was special school and Ritalin. Wasn't my first choice but sometimes it has to be done. Before that I have no idea how we kept him alive.

But those things were only possible because we had him medically diagnosed - autism, adhd and learning difficulties - and fought hard for his special school place. Hence why I suggested the need for medical assessment as so important to the OP.

@HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed
Having read the whole thread:
0) All strength and good wishes to you!

1. Do not dismiss your friend because she mentioned her concerns and / or used the wrong word doing so.
2. As other posters said:The behaviour you describe in your posts indicates autism to me (personal experience of several family members and theoretical knowledge).
3. Girls very often get overlooked.
4. It is very hard but you have to fight the system to get her help. It is quite possible that the link between action and consequence does not develop naturally in her, if at all. I know an adult capable of holding down a job but in need of constant supervision to keep him and others from harm. They really do not 'get' it and you cannot write down a black and white rule for every possible situation and circumstance.

Wow I see the armchair psychologists are out in force today. You need to get her help, and leave it to the professionals. She is still 3, and they can be very impulsive with selective hearing. Not being able to speak must be very hard for her. You need to find out about Speech and Language drop in and go from there.

The incomprehensible speech at almost 4 is a big issue. Please go back to your GP or HV