Friend called my child's behaviour psychotic

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

I bumped into a friend and her 3 year old with my DC in the park this afternoon. We met when our DC became friends at nursery and used to meet up every 2-3 weeks but after she changed her work hours it gradually tailed off. She is pretty rigid with her DC and ensures they adhere to every single rule. I'm more relaxed but definitely don't let them run riot. For example - if no one else was in the park, I wouldn't have a problem with my DC climbing up the slide, if they see puddles I don't mind if they splash in them, if they want to climb trees, collect rocks, stroke dogs - that's fine. My friend always looked shocked and told her DC a firm no to joining in.

My three year old DD is very unpredictable and I have been concerned about her behaviour for a while. Her older sister has HFA and I wonder if she too is on the spectrum, or if she could have ADHD. The incidents that prompted my friend to call her behaviour 'psychotic' were:

DD climbed to the top of a spider web type net and called me to wave. I waved and then 10 seconds later she called me again, I turned round and she leapt off the top of it at me It was high and luckily I wasn't holding the baby and managed to catch her. She has form for doing this - leaping from the top of the stairs at me without warning, jumping off the sofa onto my back when I'm changing baby on the floor. She seems to have no comprehension of what she's done wrong afterwards.

After the park we were all walking to the car park together. We were waiting for a green man to cross the road and I was adjusting my dogs lead as she was tangled and I heard the click of the pushchair break. DD had taken it off and if I hadn't been blocking the wheel with my foot then baby would have rolled into the road. Again, DD appears vacant when told off.

My friend messaged me this evening to say something needs to be done about DD, that her behaviour is psychotic and she doesn't feel safe having her DD around her. She knows I have approached the GP before but without nursery reporting issues they won't refer her.

AIBU to feel totally at a loss as to what to do with DD? I have a feeling this isn't the first friend I've lost over her behaviour. Consequences make no difference to her whatsoever. She hurts me or at least one of her siblings daily without fail due to not thinking through her actions. She's almost 4 now and her speech is pretty much incomprehensible to everyone except me and her siblings but she doesn't care. If we do gluing or painting at home, she'll just cover herself in it or pour it all over the paper. We can't have play doh because she eats it. I can't leave her alone for a minute because she's always so impulsive - I've caught her mid air about to jump on the dog from the kitchen table, stopped her pinning the baby down numerous times. She just looks vacant when being reprimanded and carries on the way she is.

If you have private health insurance you can request a referral to a pediatriation and they can refer you for a private assessment. My son was assessed for being on the spectrum at 4.

Wrong use of the word but youve a good friend there not scared to tell you your daughter might need some extra support. Go back to gp. There. Is great advice on the sen boards here op. Post on the sen boards and the support and advice you get is what makes mn amazing. Good luck op x

There should be speech and language drop ins in your area. Google it and see. Our local one will assess speech but also will ask about concerns with playing and behaviour and they can be referred for all of that through speech and language. In my area there is an 18weeks waiting list just for a further assessment after the drop in...speech would definitely be a red flag at age 4 and I’m surprised nursery haven’t picked that up.
Also have you had hearing checked too? Just mentioning that as speech and language will want that done.

So- straight to docs and ask for hearing test referral. Also mention behaviour etc.
Then look up speech and language drop in and take her. Tell them you have referred for hearing but her behaviour also concerns you not just her speech.

I’m sure others will have more advice too.

The psychotic thing would have me calmly saying I didn’t want to see that woman again.
I’m sure friend would be incredibly pleased about that. Nobody wants a drama queen.

“I think micromanaging children’s play pretty much ruins it for everyone, so perhaps we are just incompatible.”
Ahh, you’re one of those. Who give a shit about rules, eh? Who cares about having to be considerate? The children are playing so that must be the right thing.

I am sending you lots of virtual hugs... It sounds very very tough. I have 2 kids that are neurodiverse, my daughter has ASD and PDA and i 'knew' she was different from a very young age but like you the gp would not refer unless there were issues in Nursery to.. Nursery felt i was to soft and she masked there anyway and so it went round and round for years.

Keep pushing and fighting for help- is private an option? I also just read lots and lots, educated myself in neurodiversity and changed our expectations/ strategies in response. When the diagnosis did come they confirmed what we knew rather than told us new info. Its bloody hard but you already know that and parenting is.

As for the friend... She sounds very judgy to me, yes there are issues- but by text?? And the language she used was poor. We've 'lost friends' over the years and it hurt. Now i don't have the time (literally) for those people in the first place. Be with people that understand you/ nurture/ emotionally lift you not those that bring you down. You know there are issues and your trying to figure it out, you didn't need her to tell you!

Get into forums etc for ASD/ADHD and just begin to connect with a different tribe. Keep asking for support from wherever you can.

Do read about PDA... Some of the things you say 'could' be indicators.

Lots more hugs and do find support on the SN boards etc or happy for you to DM me if it would help

I'd say just ignore your friend OP, her comments are the least important thing here. You'll know your friend better than any of us on here and as we know they can vary hugely in how 'good' a friend the 'friend' is. If she's a decent sort perhaps she'd come to such a point regarding your DDs behaviour that she used a word that she's no idea what it means, probably because she simply doesn't know what the right one is (how could she, she's not a paediatric psychiatrist is she!). I'd just file that comment and focus on the important thing, your DD. Maybe the positive in that comment is that it has spurred you on to question and review all the various elements of your DDs behaviours and development as a whole. When you're in it and dealing with it it can be SO hard to see the wood for the trees.

I would also say the GP is a loon to say that the nursery should be providing evidence of her being on the spectrum or having a disorder - are nurseries doing this now?! They deliver the EYFS, not clinical diagnosis. It's not their job to diagnose her and evidence to your GP that a referral is required. (Not having a go at you at all here OP, it's the GP that needs pulling up about that - he/she sounds bloody lazy to me).

It must be so upsetting for you to have her run into your arms and then bite you but I suspect that it's a culmination of all the masking she's been doing all day expressed as a bite. Maybe you could have something she can bite ready that you hand to her the second you are about to pick her up (?? I've not got children with any SN at all so got no idea if this is an absolute load of tosh as an idea but it seemed it could be helpful to stop you getting bitten and to give her opportunity to thoroughly get rid of those feelings by going at the 'bitey' to the max, instead of one or two bites of you (which may not be 'enough' to get rid of all that frustration that's built up in the day).

I agree with everyone. Get the referrals you need (use the SN boards to find out what assessments your DD should be referred to). If the GP won't refer you, surely it would worth going private if you have to just to get the ball rolling. Most of the private Drs who work in private hospitals are NHS Consultants too at the same time, so you could probably do a bit of research on your local hospital trust and find out about the types of services they offer and which consultants are involved. Then you can see if that correlates to a local private hospital where you could see them. Then possibly as I think a PP said, you could revert back to them through the NHS as a non-private patient thereafter (please someone tell me if that's not a correct assumption as I've never had to do this before and wouldn't want to give false information).

It sounds like you are saying GP thinks it must be parenting if nursery not seeing it? Ask for some meetings with nursery and tell them what life is like, see if they can do some specific tasks or observations with her and get them on side.
I think you should have ADOS and 3di assessment, Connors Questionnaires, sensory processing/OT assessment, SALT assessment. But ask for ASD or ADHD assessment, (sounds a bit like both). It must be exhausting, although I bet she is really fun sometimes too and will have a great approach to life .

Your friend sounds very judgemental and not a good friend, so I would first be distancing myself from her, especially after her unhelpful comments, good friends do not make people feel bad.

Secondly, I would go to the speech and language drop in centre at your Local General Hospital, you can phone the speech and language department there to see if there is one and when it is on. They will assess your child's speech and refer to paeditrician if they are concerned. This is what they did when we went to the drop in for dd now 11, she was diagnosed by Paeditrician as having ASD and learning difficulties and sensory processing disorder. If not, ask to see your HV and for them to assess her and refer to Paeditrician.

If she is fine at nursery but not with you .. sounds like you need to be stricter. She should not be allowed to climb to the top of the spiderweb in the park for example if you know she has habit of jumping off things. She can really hurt yourself or somebody else. It sounds like she really needs some boundaries as well as being referred to some specialists, and I think you need to keep pushing for that because the behaviour is not typical .

Ballsdeep she jumps off something probably once every two/three months. Should I keep her indoors the whole time just in case?

If she hurts herself she will blame someone else but isn't that fussed about any injury, just the injustice of it.

Op you do need to get her help though, especially if her speech is incomprehensible at 4. She could be frustrated if she is unable to communicate, if they are not helping her at nursery, it will be very hard for her. Get her help now!

I think your friend is getting a bad rep here. She was probably shocked and worried, especially for her own DD. It may be the case that because she’s more uptight she might be somewhat blaming your parenting (which isnt OK).

Hopefully this will be the push to get something rolling in terms of diagnosis so she can get help.

Please rehome DDog though. That’s not a good environment for the dog or your DD. As your baby gets older you can’t have eyes on everyone.

In Autism, masking is quite common in girls, though dd never did it, she has classic Autism in which it is pretty obvious so professionals could see her behaviour, which helped a lot.

Phone up your local hospital, and be asked to be put through to speech and language department, then find out if they do drop ins and when. If not, see a different GP and ask to be referred to speech and language, if they are concerned, they will refer to paeditrician.

I think the issue of how and what your friend said (coupled with your clearly different parenting styles) is separate. Because the way she said it was wrong and I am not sure your friendship can recover

But that aside your daughters behaviour is not normal and at the moment is going to cause real issues at school. You need to push the nursery and the GP for a referral

After what she said, and her parenting style, I would constantly think she was silently judging me, and that is not a friendship.

What other people don’t see is that when you live with a child like this their behaviour is seen a their normal We learn to live with it
Not that there’s much choice but it’s a shock to other parents - I experience that regularly

Tbh op your friend sounds not great at parenting - all 3 year olds should be jumping in puddles and getting muddy looking for ‘treasure’ in the park I always encouraged that

I just assumed my son was just being himself until a teacher told me he’d jumped off a 5” A frame at playtime with no fear for hurting himself

He has Adhd

Can you video her behaviour and show it to your health visitor? Its very hard to get the point across if nursery arnt backing you up and there for your just explaining her behaviour.

I would video it and show it to the necessary people.

I think your friend is wrong, your daughters behaviour is not psychotic, but by using such a strong word I think she has in a way done you a favour by jolting you out of your complacency . Your daughters behaviour is worrying, and for her own sake you need to be a lot firmer and determined to get an assessment under way

To all those who say it must be the OPs parenting if her daughter is different at school, this is not particularly true and shows a lack of understanding. I used to be a primary teacher and I have taught many autistic children. I would say the vast majority were more difficult to manage at home than school. I suspect there are a few reasons for this.

1. Most neurotypical children are better behaved at school too- makes no difference to SN.
2. Most autistic children respond well to a very structured day, with timings the same and clear boundaries for behaviour. School naturally provides this, especially if they have a very organised and efficient teacher. This is difficult to replicate at home.
3. many children will hold everything in at school and then it needs to come out somewhere later and this is normally at home.

I also have personal experience as I have said on another thread. My nephew is autistic. His school say he is the quiet child in the corner, day dreaming etc. At home he has endless energy and is confrontational. Parenting does make a difference - my sister is not a naturally organised or firm parent. But I also can see that it takes a huge amount of self control for him to sit still at school and this means he literally bursts out of school like a puppy that has been tied up all day!

So parenting, whilst it can definitely help, does not mean that SN are not present.

Sorry- I know my post focusses on autism but I would say it stands for other SN too. Especially adhd etc.

@joystir59 Not helpful, and not nice.

I think that part of the problem is that the parenting style that you would like to practise is not actually working for this particular child. It relies on children learning from experience and using their own judgement to apply limits. But it has also introduced grey areas: she has been allowed/encouraged to climb trees, so in her mind why shouldn't she climb other things? Or experiment further by hurling herself off? After all, mummy hasn't said that I can't climb up here and she seems to approve of what I am doing, so maybe I can really impress her by showing her what else I can do...

What did you say to her immediately after the climbing frame leap?
To me, that would have been: 'No, don't do that. Jumping off there was very dangerous. We can't play in the park if you are not behaving safely.' Then immediately but calmly going home.

There are some good suggestions for clear boundaries upthread.

Ultimately, unless you get a diagnosis that necessitates medication, there is no magic trick. When I was teaching I worked closely with a unit for infant age children with EBD: the work they did in the unit was a case of very clear boundaries, rewards and consequences. But in a small enough group to enable very, very close monitoring of behaviour. The ultimate aim was always for children to develop sufficient self-regulation to fit within mainstream schooling. They also ran an evidence-based parenting programme that all parents of children in the unit were strongly encouraged to attend.

I recommend videoing the behavior.
My son has a small hernia below his sternum which appears when his tummy is full.
Of course when I took him to the gp it wasn't visible. Gp thought I was referring to his sternum sticking out.
I took a photo of it next time it appeared and then gp agreed to send him to a consultant to check it out.
I've found most health professionals are kind but dismissive of mothers fears.
Her behavior could just be due to your soft parenting or it could be due to additional needs. We can't tell over an Internet forum.
My own not quite 3you will jump off things and jump on people but will modify his behavior after a few weeks of being told (or when he hurts himself).
My then 4yo went through a phase of pushing boundaries to deliberately see what would happen. O had to go right back to basics with him and ve very strict for a while.
Good luck OP.