Friend called my child's behaviour psychotic

[HelenLaBloodyAnnoyed]

I bumped into a friend and her 3 year old with my DC in the park this afternoon. We met when our DC became friends at nursery and used to meet up every 2-3 weeks but after she changed her work hours it gradually tailed off. She is pretty rigid with her DC and ensures they adhere to every single rule. I'm more relaxed but definitely don't let them run riot. For example - if no one else was in the park, I wouldn't have a problem with my DC climbing up the slide, if they see puddles I don't mind if they splash in them, if they want to climb trees, collect rocks, stroke dogs - that's fine. My friend always looked shocked and told her DC a firm no to joining in.

My three year old DD is very unpredictable and I have been concerned about her behaviour for a while. Her older sister has HFA and I wonder if she too is on the spectrum, or if she could have ADHD. The incidents that prompted my friend to call her behaviour 'psychotic' were:

DD climbed to the top of a spider web type net and called me to wave. I waved and then 10 seconds later she called me again, I turned round and she leapt off the top of it at me It was high and luckily I wasn't holding the baby and managed to catch her. She has form for doing this - leaping from the top of the stairs at me without warning, jumping off the sofa onto my back when I'm changing baby on the floor. She seems to have no comprehension of what she's done wrong afterwards.

After the park we were all walking to the car park together. We were waiting for a green man to cross the road and I was adjusting my dogs lead as she was tangled and I heard the click of the pushchair break. DD had taken it off and if I hadn't been blocking the wheel with my foot then baby would have rolled into the road. Again, DD appears vacant when told off.

My friend messaged me this evening to say something needs to be done about DD, that her behaviour is psychotic and she doesn't feel safe having her DD around her. She knows I have approached the GP before but without nursery reporting issues they won't refer her.

AIBU to feel totally at a loss as to what to do with DD? I have a feeling this isn't the first friend I've lost over her behaviour. Consequences make no difference to her whatsoever. She hurts me or at least one of her siblings daily without fail due to not thinking through her actions. She's almost 4 now and her speech is pretty much incomprehensible to everyone except me and her siblings but she doesn't care. If we do gluing or painting at home, she'll just cover herself in it or pour it all over the paper. We can't have play doh because she eats it. I can't leave her alone for a minute because she's always so impulsive - I've caught her mid air about to jump on the dog from the kitchen table, stopped her pinning the baby down numerous times. She just looks vacant when being reprimanded and carries on the way she is.

OP, you friend's choice of words weren't exactly tactful, but perhaps she had witnessed previous episodes of your DD's behaviour and felt that it was time to jolt you into action before something awful happens. From her perspective, she seems to have a much firmer style of parenting, whereas you're a bit more relaxed, and maybe because of that she wrongly assumed that you weren't being proactive about seeking a referral/help?

Santaclarita's post re psychopaths is spot on; they are born, not made, but anyway your DD is only 3, so I think it would be too early for anyone to tell whether she is a psychopath. In any case from everything I've seen and read about psychopaths (a fair amount as I had to deal with a relative who is one), although they lack empathy, it does not necessarily follow that they will be malicious or harm anyone, there is hope for them to lead decent lives and form relationships, provided they are brought up by loving parents who set good examples for them. They may never be able to truly empathise when another person feels pain, but they can be taught why it's wrong to inflict pain, or harm others, and they can be taught right from wrong.

All that aside, you have a baby and a dog, and they are in the firing line every day. You need all the support and knowledge you can arm yourself with, so please push for the referral and make everyone who deals with your DD aware that she has these impulsive tendencies, so they can be hyper-vigilent. It might be useful to jot down dates and descriptions of these incidents, so that anyone assessing your DD will have a full picture of what is going on. Maybe in a few months something in her brain will just click into place and she'll grow out of this phase, but in the meantime I hope you can access support. If things get worse, perhaps you could rehome the dog? One less distraction for you, and less risk all around (dog may react badly one day, or you could end up with an expensive vet bill.)

I hadn't thought of the questioning being a stimming thing...that makes sense.

I believe your friend expressed her behaviour is extreme (generally psychotic isn't used correctly, but as a euphemism for extreme and difficult to understand behaviour). It's shocking to hear, and I don't think she would have taken the time to call you if she didn't give a damn about you, I think she'd have just been rude at the time. Instead she went home and thought about what she was going to say.

I'm not defending her shock language,but many would express that this way I think and not to be offensive.

I am sorry that your DD is obviously causing huge worry and must be so demanding and exhausting. I just wanted to offer support in hoping some course of action can be found to help with it.

Like others said, please do not ever leave her alone with animals or younger/similar age DC. I think your friend was sensible to want to keep her DC safe.

I really hope you can get something soon.

She went through a phase where she was fascinated by the dog and I trained DDog to follow me whenever I leave the room so there's no chance DD could do anything.

I’m not surprised you’re exhausted. I really hope you can get some proper support from some experts.

“Psychopath” has so many negative connotations that it’s hard not to feel very upset by this word. Yes there are very powerful and rich CEOs who have been diagnosed as being psychopaths and are perfectly happy in their world. But the word “psychopath” has a lot more negative connotations than positive and is a diagnosis and not a description of a 3 year old.

OP we were in the same situation as you, couldn’t sort a referral etc.

In desperation I rang my local private hospital and asked for a paediatrician with an interest in behavioural issues, ideally one that also did NHS work.

£150 later and we saw the community paediatrician who sorted out Connors and Van Der Bilt assessments, referred us back into the NHS system for proper diagnosis and sorted out referrals for OT and the Ed Psych. It was the best £150 we ever spent and speeded things up considerably.

Also, my child also would bite or thump me at pick up. I’m the safe space after a day of holding it together. Your friend did the right thing to say something, she just did it the wrong way.

I think the question thing is fairly common at this age and not necessarily indicative of a developmental disorder.

The other behaviour is very concerning and I would definitely seek help from gp/hv.

A diagnosis won't be quick and it won't actually change anything on a day to day basis so I would suggest doing your own research and adapting your parenting techniques as best you can to fit her needs.

I would say in the very short term, you need to parent her at the age she acts and not the age she is.

If she has no sense of danger she shouldn't be allowed to the top of a high climbing frame or to be loose near a road.

Get a double buggy where one is up and is down (like Phil and Ted's) so she can't get to the baby. Get reins. Get stair gates. Babyproof to keep her safe.

The instructions in the bath were too long. Do X, if you do Y then A will happen but you won't get B. It's too much. Just 'No thank you DD' and remove the jug.

Bring every thing down like you're parenting an 18 month old.

You can’t get an ADHD diagnosis under 5 now; they ask the parents to go on a parenting course instead.

Sorry you're having such a shit time, OP - ignore the uninformed comments about whether your DD is psychotic and concentrate on your concerns about getting an assessment for ASD (which sounds possible, from what you've said)

If you still want to pursue a diagnosis via the GP, it might be possible to expedite things by letting them know that you gave two other children (including a baby) and that you feel that your DD's behaviour could pose a risk to them. (This is one of the questions that our GP asked when I was trying to get a CAHMS referral for DS, who has HFA and is currently suffering from very high anxiety.) I know you feel you've got it all in hand, and it's horrible to admit that your child might be a risk to their siblings, but it might be worth considering if you feel that there's any danger to your other children. When I spoke to my GP about DS, I said that he didn't currently pose a threat to my other child, but she (the GP) said to let her know as soon as that changed as it would immediately escalate the referral (and possibly trigger other forms of support).

Of course your friend used the wrong word, but I think she was seriously frightened. I would be, at the buggy about to roll into the road.

A lot of what you describe is quite concerning, which you already know. She sounds like very hard work.
Do push for a referral. You will probably have to be persistent, but don't be put off. Describe how often she hurts or seriously endangers herself and others.
In the meantime, I second a previous poster who said to simplify language. 'No, hot!' said emphatically, instead of 'if you touch that you'll hurt yourself darling, so don't ....'
Having said that, the blank look when being told off is fairly common.

OP - I hope you get the help you need soon. You must be exhausted, especially trying to protect your other children.

I was previously in a situation where I didn’t want my little one to socialise with a new friend’s son, so we were always “busy” if play dates were suggested.

Your friend’s wording wasn’t correct, but I think the message was most likely well intended so that you pursue help.

Why on earth are people continuing to talk about psychopathy when the friend called the child "psychotic"? As PtahNeith and others have pointed out. Obviously, neither word is at all appropriate, but they refer to completely different conditions.

OP, much sympathy to you. Some of your DD's behaviour may be related to her speech delay and/or typical impulsivity and lack of understanding of cause and effect. But I agree with you and PPs that a professional assessment would be valuable.

Her wording is horrible, however, she has a right to feel that her daughter is unsafe in your daughter's presence.

Although, if she is supervising her dd, she will be able to keep her safe.

Your dd does like she has markers for ASD though. Do you have other options over and above what the nursery can do if they aren't seeing anything?

@Dohee - I think the child knew exactly what she was doing by taking the brake off Do you have an autistic child with no sense of danger?

@zzzzz - She’s jumped off a climbing frame and fiddled with the break on a pushchair, hardly aberrant behaviour
Those incidents coupled with other information op has shared show a lack of danger awareness. This is not typical toddler behaviour. And it is not slightly impulsive

@zzzzz - There may be developmental differences, she may not be neurotypical but there is nothing “wrong”
What qualifications do you have to make an assessment of the op's child on the very limited (and worrying) information she has shared here?

I was just wondering, OP, do you always get to catch her on time?

It certainly does sound like you have an unusual and challenging child, but I used to let my NT toddler fall, if there was no danger involved and she grew up to be extremely cautious about hurting herself. Then she managed to prevent her toddler dd from ever hurting herself and my dgd is a lot more daring.

She doesn't seem to be connecting cause and consequence. As coyoacan asked, have you ever not caught her when she jumps off something? What happens when she hurts herself - does she become more cautious with that particular activity or continue like she never got hurt?

'Psychotic' isn't an insult. Your friend may have meant your daughter has no awareness of risk or consequences, making her a danger to herself and others. Throwing yourself from the top of climbing frames/stairs and trying to push a sibling into traffic isn't normal behaviour for a 3 year old.

Psychosis in children is very rare but not unheard of. It usually develops in adolescence, but early signs can mimic developmental disorders/ASD with rocking, hand flapping, speech delay, bizarre behaviour, altered perceptions. Older children may complain of hearing voices/sounds or seeing things that aren't there, or be seen to respond to unseen stimuli. Unless you have a family history of psychotic disorders/schizophrenia I wouldn't worry about psychosis unless she has other symptoms.

I do think you need urgent help for your DD though. Have you been to your GP? Her behaviour sounds very dangerous, for her and children around her. Professional help will help you understand and manage her behaviour better.

I also can understand why your friend used psychotic. Your dds behaviour is difficult to describe as it is very far from that of the average child of her age. She is not calling your dd a psychopath. You admit yourself your dds behaviour is frenzied then blank and emotionless. A person, who is psychotic may also person display the same behaviour - or at least by my understanding of the word.

Please don’t get caught up in a word. To have stayed friends with you despite your dds behaviour shows she is truly a friend and cares about you and your children. Shd must have been shocked by the pushchair incident and it must have been a very difficult text two write. My friend also had a difficult conversation with me about my dds behaviour when she was 5. At the time I was very hurt but she was dead right. The issue with dd was far less complex than yours and easily fixable with professional intervention and really was very much needed.

Please take this as the push you need to sort out what is going on with your dd. The whole situation must be very difficult for you and I don’t think you can continue as you are for much longer without someone getting seriously hurt.

Idk how much your dd understands. Can you try telling her what we do do as opposed to what we don’t? Children often don’t get the word don’t. Then they are hearing the opposite. Your dd is hearing “touch it’s hot”, “throw that on dd”, “jump” etc by the sound of it. Then when you tell her off or punish her for doing what she’s been told to do if must be very confusing. The blank stare could be a protection mechanism. (Lay person here so I could be wrong).

When your dd gets on the table, can you take her off and say “we play on the floor”. When you go upstairs and downstairs with her can you say “we walk upstairs, we walk downstairs”. Will she get things like this?

Her behaviour being different at nursery may be because she isn't confident enough to be herself. I've seen it a lot at my work. I work with adults who have learning disabilities, with their regular staff they show more of the challenging behaviour because they trust them. If the doctors aren't listening to you videoing her in the home may help.

I'm sorry but if I knew my 3 year old had form for jumping off high things, she would not be climbing to the top of a high climbing rope 🤔

I would go to the gp and push and push for a referral. Contact your hv too and ask them to refer or assess. I don't think your friend is a twat. She could have used different words but i think she is right to have concerns about her lo

I think you are both right to be very concerned about her behaviour. I hope you are able to get her the help she so obviously needs.