To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

My child was the first on both sides.

My in laws were very pushy from day 1 about wanting to spend time alone, fortunately my DH always sided with me (even if he didn't agree with me).

This is YOUR child, your rules go 100%.

Now I understand the grandparents wish to spend time with child without parents as it's less people around the child, more 1-1 bonding time etc.

However the over tickling and rough play would get my back right up, I absolutely hated it when I was young and I don't let anyone rough play with my kids at all. It is not allowed.
Any decent adult will respect that.

^There's a book often recommended on here which I haven't read but understand its premise. "The gift of fear"

Brilliant book! Understand when your gut instinct and intuition are talking to you and let them guide you. The conscious brain takes time working out the logic and reason, whereas your subconscious has already noted everything and is telling you immediately.

There is a PDF version of the book you can download here
www.pdfdrive.com/the-gift-of-fear-e39893700.html

CanIFindThem for you.

OP I have a FIL who can be a bit like this (not to the extent yours is). He is loud, brash and expects to get his own way. DH is an only child and even now, in his late 50's, lives with the FOG his parents conditioned him into. They tried it with me when I first came on the scene 32 years ago and it didn't wash, so we would have regular tears from MIL and shouting from FIL. It was water off a duck's back to me and I happily went NC. Told DH he was welcome to see them whenever he liked but leave me out of it, so they came crawling back and things were okay after that.

Then we had children and FIL was similar, but not to such an extent as yours. Tickling and rough play, and he once or twice pretty much ordered DD to kiss her nan. I had to put a stop to this as DH was so used to just going along with anything his father demanded he almost couldn't comprehend that it was possible to say no to him.
He hurt my DD once by putting his arm around her neck and hugging her quite roughly. She cried and said 'That hurt grandpa' and he laughed and said 'No it didn't, I was only playing'. Just the look on my face made him back off and I established firm boundaries about rough play after that.

My inlaws don't like me much but they respect me because they know I speak my mind and will stand up to them. I think that's the best you can hope for with your IL's. They like my DH but they really don't respect him.

The good news is both DC are adults in their 20's now and both really love their grandpa (he is quite a character I have to admit). He's still loud and brash even in his 90's, but establishing boundaries when the DC were young and ensuring that he and MIL respected that we, not them, made the decisions for our DC, meant they could be involved and form a healthy relationship with them as they were growing up. Of course your situation with your ILs may not be salvageable if they refuse to see sense, only you and your DH know if it's worth the effort and aggro involved, and of course if there is any suspicion of CSA than NC is really the only way forward to protect your little girl. Good luck.

@glitterfarts I'm glad that my post was helpful. But I'm sad that it resonated for you 💐

Great name BTW!

stormwhale you’ve got this. Well done. What fab parents you are 😘

MummyofLittleDragon thank you. I've actually been through less than others but more than some.

There's a spectrum. I actually have a friend who experienced to my mind worse abuse than me from a family friend but who has said to me they think it's worse for me because it was my dad so no respite from at least the anticipation (I used to barricade my bedroom door, I still sleep facing the bedroom door) plus it was a betrayal of the relationship, the trust. Until it became physical (because there's also a perception sexual abuse can't be verbal/emotional it can) I had utterly adored him, we were "best buddies", inseparable when he wasn't at work. To the point my mother was jealous (she's actually said this a lot). When I withdrew from that relationship my mother says (contradictory considering she also says she doesn't believe me) she put it down to normal adolescent development of separating from parental bonds.

I post because I would NEVER want anyone to go through what I or FAR too many others have. One person I know the abuse was so bad she has never had an adult sexual relationship and likely never will.

The damage once done cannot be completely reversed. Most will go on to heal to some degree, but I've never met or heard of anyone who it hasn't affected them for ft rest of their life.

HeebieJeebies - I must buy it to read myself. I've also (sparked by watching lie to me) read some of Paul ekmans and others stuff on micro expressions & other body language cues. The thing that struck me was because in lie to me there's a character that was a victim of physical abuse that was a "natural" at doing what the scientists in the programme were learning to do. And yes I know it's physical but it makes sense - that victims of abuse are quicker than others to pick up on potentially abusive people/subtle actions than others. Their experience has taught them to as a protective skill. These studies also go some way to "explaining" what creates "gut instinct" as in scientists and experts in threat assessment are now thinking/realising that it's the subconscious mind reacting to

Micro expressions
Changes in body language
Voice tone and subtle differences in word choice
Even body odour (changes in hormone eg rise in testosterone when feeling more aggressive can slightly alter a persons body odour)
If that persons skin response changes - hairs raise, slightly increased sweating that kind of thing

The clues are there we just don't consciously recognise them.

I've posted on threads about things like "have you ever met someone you instantly disliked" to say yes, and I'm usually right. Some post on those threads and say things like 'yes and I had no idea why they were apparently a perfectly nice, friendly charming person but I never liked them...then later it turned out they were a cheat/criminal/abuser'

Yes there is confirmation bias at play sometimes too but I think a lot of people do learn especially as they get older to trust their initial feelings on meeting a person - whether they're positive or negative.

When I met my closest friend I almost instantly trusted her, and confided in her far more and more quickly than I usually do with anyone and over the years she's proved me right time and again. She's an amazing lady who's been through a lot herself and yet isn't jaded like me.

@Graphista

One of friends sounds like my DSis; she's incapable of having a sexual relationship as an adult. She has a loving marriage because her DH is lovely and so supportive of her. (Their two bio DC were born through AI.)

She and I were similarly close to our abusive F, hence why it took so long for us to accept that we were victims; we'd buried the memories. My DM always thought he was such a loving father, it never occurred to her that there might be a reason why I used to shy away from him as a teenager, she used to tell me off for making him sad. The truth was, he made my skin crawl and this went on until his death 21 years ago.

I don't think there are degrees of suffering, though, we all have to live with what we went through. I also don't think that pain ever goes away, we learn to live with it but the effects are still with us.

Graphista
That sounds horrendous. The poor little you must have suffered a great deal with. I’m sure you know that it isn’t uncommon to rewrite history. I suspect your mother does believe you but not at a level she is willing to acknowledge and has suppressed her feelings. Poor consolation for abuse survivors.

Lizzie48
It is difficult to understand mothers, who refuse to see what Is going on under their noses and blame their children.

I meant to say I also don’t think there are degrees to suffering either. Some people are more resilient and less affected. It’s just the way we are made coupled with the care we have received prior to the abuse both from the abusers and others.

Graphista that instant feeling of dislike, I felt really strongly once. I used to work on the checkouts of a supermarket, and one day, 2 men came through, buying photography magazines. All of a sudden, I felt an instant revulsion towards the older man, it was so visceral, it shocked me, and I had the strong feeling he was a paedophile. I served him as quickly as I could, making sure I didn't touch him when taking his money, because I needed him to get away from me, fast.

There was nothing to explain it, but it was such a strong feeling, I've never forgotten it.

Op what mak s you feel you have to answer or respond to calls, ft or messages. Just ignore them

MummyofLittleDragon - not surprising as she won't even acknowledge the abuse she's suffered at his hand. They're still together though he is now too sick to hurt her physically but is still very controlling & emotionally abusive. After over 50 years of it she really doesn't know any different. I've had to take a step back, after many years of trying to get her to leave. It's never going to happen.

Motoko the story that always sticks in my mind is a journalist who was speaking on breakfast tv re Ian Huntley. She'd been one of those interviewing him (if you remember he insinuated himself into a lot of the media circus around what was then the disappearance of the girls) and they'd all (journalists & presenters) been meeting him prior to an appearance/interview and the others had shook his hand on saying hello. He wasn't under suspicion at this point. She'd felt like you a visceral physical feeling of "do not touch this guy" and said hello without shaking hand even dodging it and she was saying she was so glad she hadn't (appearing after his arrest) because she thought she'd have felt sick at the thought of having been touched by the hands that killed those poor girls.

There was a police officer too who was one of first on scene in the Tracie Andrews case (though admittedly I understand it was fairly early on they suspected her) who said right from start he just didn't believe her, that he sensed she was absolutely capable of the harm done.

I read somewhere that tickling is abusive. And I firmly believe that.

The tickling and unwanted rough play need to STOP before you will even consider letting her go there, IMO.

I read somewhere that tickling is abusive. And I firmly believe that.

I think that's debatable... if you mean not having a way for a child to control the situation (eg, actually stopping and taking a step back when the child says 'stop') then I'm with you 100%

Exactly. Many children love tickling games, being tickled, and tickling back. My granddaughter comes over and asks to be tickled.

The problem comes when someone doesn't give the child a chance to catch their breath, or say to stop now. Or tickling a child that you know doesn't like it. Then it becomes abusive.

You've said that FIL

• can't read/repect DD's boundaries
• can be controlling and it took dh a long time to get out from that control.
• MIL won't be there
• asked DD and has presented it as a done deal - from now on he asks you/dh before asking DD
• has made you feel railroaded into this
• makes you feel uncomfortable enough to not allow DD to be alone with him

From where I am standing, FIL is exerting control over both you and DD. Just say NO. You need to nip the controlling behaviour in the bud now.

How have things been this week @Stormwhale? Did he turn up at school?

Hi, things have been quiet on the pil front. My health has taken a bit of a downward turn and I had to go to hospital on Tuesday. I think seeing that I'm unwell, plus my pointing out that dh is just about coping with everything we have going on has given their heads a bit of a wobble.

Mil in particular was upset to hear dh is not doing as well as she thought and I can see her being unhappy that fil had had such a go at him. I wonder if she has finally had words with him.

Either way I'm glad they have backed off as both dh and I were reaching breaking point and it was going to get ugly.

Thanks for the update. Hope you are feeling better.
I would remain wary. You might be assuming hoping that they are reacting reasonably.

Sorry to hear about your health. I hope it improves for you soon, but I'm glad they've backed off for now.

Hi @Stormwhale How are you? I hope your health has improved and things have remained stress free.