To ask for advice re PILs?

[Stormwhale]

Just a disclaimer, I am pregnant, hormonal, tired and there is a long history of us making an effort with the PILs, but it not always being an easy relationship. I can go more into that if necessary, but it will be very long.

Dd (5) is fond of PILs, but is wary of fil as he can ignore her boundaries when it comes to tickling, or rough play to the point where she is upset. He just doesn't seem to naturally know how to relate to her without all the rough play. I will always stop him when I see this happening, same as I would with anyone else.

Over Christmas he asked dd (without talking to us) if he can come and collect her from school and walk her home one day a week. She agreed. This then escalated to him telling her that she could then come home with him sometimes and stay over (this has never happened before) to which she said no, that she didn't want to. We told her that was absolutely fine, and she didn't have to go anywhere she didn't want to.

Last week we got a phonecall to tell us that on Friday pil will be coming with to collect dd from school, and will then start on his own the next week. There was no question, it was an order. This put our backs up and dh said no, that hadn't been arranged and wasn't convenient.

At the same time I started to feel very anxious about the whole thing. I'm worried that dd has been struggling at school a bit since going back after Christmas and seems quite emotional at the minute. Dh and I ended up having a disagreement as he feels we have already agreed to it. We have since spoken more and are more on the same page. He understands that I'm struggling a bit with anxiety at the moment, my hormones are all over the place and this is a stressful situation.

So yesterday Dh starts getting repeated FaceTime calls from fil. He didn't answer as it wasn't convenient. We were out for two important birthday celebrations. He also received messages from mil asking what day fil can come with to the school so he can start collecting her the next week. He replied briefly, explaining where we were but didn't specify a day. He did pop over there yesterday evening though, but unfortunately was met with a barrage of abuse off of fil about him not answering the FaceTimes and how he wants to see his grand daughter, he hasn't seen her in two weeks. Dh replied that he will have to wait as we have been busy. I will just point out that they saw dd 3 or 4 times over the Christmas break including on Christmas day.

I don't know where to go from here. I want a good relationship with them, but it feels like our wants and needs are being trampled all over, and they are being far too pushy. I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out. I'm worried he will use it as an opportunity to convince dd she should be going for sleepovers when she doesn't want to.

The FaceTime issue is getting to me as well, as it feels so intrusive and if we ignore it fil clearly kicks off. It's not always convenient or appropriate depending on what we are doing.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. We have worked hard at the relationship with them while trying to keep our own boundaries, but this feels like it's pushing too far.

Any outside insight would be great.

OP, who would intervene in the tickling and rough play when Dd is alone, at his house, when MIL is at work?

If he is too much for you and your husband to deal with as a couple and it stresses you out - I quite genuinely cannot see how the fuck you would even consider putting your 5 year old in a situation alone with this man.

Does DH have any siblings? What is their relationship with ILS like?

Is FIL like this with other children he has access to? What was his job?

She is only 5. Of course its nice for granparents to have time and to be helpful with school pickups, but this should be an offer , not a demand. He plays to rough he is not sensitive to your feelings, so NO

You say "he is not an abuser" but finish the same paragraph with "he is controlling"!!

OK so let's assume there is no risk of sexual abuse here despite the evidence.

Is there risk of emotional abuse?
What do we KNOW?
He's bullying
He is trying to seize control
He does not respect boundaries
He makes your daughter feel uncomfortable
You have had to carefully manage his contact with her thus far
He is determined to get her alone
He rides roughshod over the wishes of her parents
His treatment of your DH in childhood has left a legacy to this day

Hmm ... are you SERIOUSLY saying that you are going to agree to offer up your own daughter to keep the peace?

You only have to read on this forum to find people who have suffered both SA & EA who will say that actually long term it is the EA which forms the deepest scars. Please please protect her.

You only have to read on this forum to find people who have suffered both SA & EA who will say that actually long term it is the EA which forms the deepest scars. Please please protect her.

Yes, definitely. My F was always guilty of EA, this continued after the SA stopped. My DM also suffered EA and had very poor boundaries. We're all badly damaged.

I'm sorry, I would urge you to consider NC or low contact.

Ah, being too nice and making someone else's problem the old problem of making someone else's problem your own.

I know it's easy to say just say no to what they want, but it will cause a rift. The point is, it won't be you causing the rift, it will be them by pushing you to the point where you have to say no.

Whether the behaviour is red flags or over enthusiasm, it's inappropriate. Your DH is backing you on this, and he knows what his father is like. You say DH didn't have a great childhood - do you want to inflict the same on your DD?

Please don't even let your daughter be a part of making this decidion.

She may be 'ok' with pick up and sleepover because now her experience of him is where you have been there, stopping him repeatedly from doing the things that upset her. Her experience with him has been in the safety of your presence. She's not necessarily old enough to even consider how this would change if you weren't there, to give you an informed answer.

What will her experience be when you are no longer there to stop a controlling man, who has NOT LISTENED to you. From what you have said you have had to explain to him in real serious and boundaried way, and he STILL has to be reminded?

He doesn't care what you want, his son wants, his grand daughter wants. He cares what he wants. Thats scary enough.

It is abuse. It is hurting you. Cut this controlling bastard out because he will never stop. What good has he brought your husbands life, yours, dds? Maybe its time to weigh up with husband, do you cut contact and deal with that aftermath/tantrums or do you endure this for years to come and instead of enjoying your new baby, endure watching him try to control and be over the top with him/her. I know which i would choose.

You sound like you have done wonderfully at protecting her and I applaud you for standing up for her boundaries, we all know it is invaluable in a girl and womans life. Be kind to yourself.

This is insane!!!!

All I see from this thread is a grandparent who is trying to interact with granddaughter and not got the balance right yet. Tickling and saying no is hardly controlling.

If they had a walk home from school to chat and bond I am sure he would be able to interact in a way she enjoys.

He asked to be involved and you and dh repeatedly ignored his request of when to come school run. That is rude no wonder he was annoyed.

Also my dd has to walk home from school some times and has to go to grandparents sometimes wether she wants to or not because I am at work. She has an amazing bond with all grandparwnts and doesn't want sleepovers as she prefers her own house. But if we have something on then she will go to grandparents even if not her first choice, because it is my first choice and I know she is safe. Even if the rules aren't the same she is safe and will enjoy it well enough. Even if shock horror she is forced to go a walk in the morning, or perhaps church.

My DD is my world but the more loving people in her life the better and having to fit in with what the family needs sometimes is part of life too. You Dd will have a huge benefit of grandparents she is happy to be with when new baby comes and she is emotional/jealous. They can make a fuss of her and treat her.

". I just hope we don't get a barrage of FaceTimes, phone calls and messages today "

So what if you do-ignore, ignore, ignore.

1. If you can’t say ‘No’ to him, how do you expect your DD to be able to? She doesn’t want him to pick her up, but she’ll go along with it because he’s a difficult person to say ‘No’ to.

1. I agree with previous poster who said he’d decided on Fridays as that’s a better day for sleepovers - harder for you to say No.

1. After 5 years he hasn’t learned respectful behaviour such that you are not comfortable leaving them alone. So why even consider it?

1. If you are too scared to say No without an excuse, then use the being worried about being pushed out by a new baby one.

1. It is not you causing a rift if you reiterate that you think things should stay as they are.

What is MIL like?

Sorry I think massive alarm Bells too!! Why is he so keen to have her alone and her her to stay over? You've already said he ignores her boundaries whilst tickling etc!! Stand firm and say no!! I'm with you on this one!! They sound weird!! Xx

I remember your post about the tickling. The fact that you have spoken to him and he is still doing it is concerning.
He sounds like a controlling bully. I'd go very low contact until he understands boundaries .
This is too much pressure for your dd, say no to everything and let her know you have, she's 5 don't make her think she has to make the decisions.
If it's been hard for 2 adults to make their wishes heard and understood how is she supposed to do it?

As a previous poster said, controlling behavior and ignoring boundaries is abusive. I would not allow this. Once he has her alone, he will push her again regarding sleepovers and she won't have you to back her up and help her say no if she's uncomfortable.

Those of you saying those of us that are wary are "overreacting" do you have any personal experience of childhood abuse? Are you experts in the field in some way? Or even just in childcare beyond looking after your own?

Just to be upfront I am a csa survivor.

That said your post rang alarm bells for me.

Fil is:

Not respecting dds physical boundaries - "tickling" is often used to excuse "accidental" inappropriate touch, to stretch boundaries - cos who can object to tickling it's fun right?

Asking a 5 YEAR OLD if they can collect them from school without parents

Saying she can stay over - again without discussing with parents

TELLING you about arrangements re picking up YOUR child.

Also that your dd is "wary" of him. Young kids are often more in touch with instinctual feelings than adults and they're usually right.

I believe in listening to instincts. Girls and women are trained to ignore them and "be nice" which I am certain makes them more vulnerable.

YOUR anxiety is likely coming from YOUR instincts are screaming at you.

There's a book often recommended on here which I haven't read but understand its premise. "The gift of fear"

This is him on Oprah

m.youtube.com/watch?v=bBProrposzc

I was actually looking for:

I also remember very clearly watching an episode of Oprah AGES ago and there was a guest on a guy who Iirc was a former cop and was now on (maybe selling a book or something?) giving advice on how to avoid becoming a victim of crime - or at least a worse crime by not just listening to BUT responding to your instincts. 1991 - that means it's almost 30 years ago I saw it and only once and I STILL remember it.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=V9E1-FJUqJA

Iirc the same guy also said something else which stuck with me and I taught to dd around the time she was your dds age too.

It was something like 'for years we've been told and it was considered good advice that if attached you do what your attacker wants, give them your purse or whatever. We're now learning that advice was wrong. That actually people who fight back - especially if what they 'want' is you - are less likely to be as harmed as their attacker initially intended. So scream, kick, scratch, bite do whatever it takes to get away from them'

It struck a chord with me as my sister was once the victim of an attempted abduction when she was 11 (it turned out to be a case of mistake identity in a custody dispute. The father had arranged for someone else to grab his kid so he'd have an alibi. My sister went to the same school and the 2 girls do look very alike). She instinctively basically went nuts! Kicked, spat, screamed, hit and a couple of witnesses thus picked up on her reaction and pulled her away from him. Soon as he realised 2 adults were close enough to ID him he scarpered!

So both those things meant I taught dd that if ANYONE (I don't believe in stranger danger, never did. Many child protection experts are now saying that policy/campaign did more harm than good because it lead to people NOT suspecting, being watchful of family/friends/acquaintances. It perpetuated the myth) ever tried to take her ANYWHERE we hadn't previously arranged and she didn't feel safe going or if she didn't feel safe with that person she was to shout VERY loudly "I'm not allowed to go with you!" And she had my "permission" to scream, bite, hit, kick, scratch whatever to get away. That she wouldn't be in trouble with anyone for doing so.

"I don't feel comfortable about the pick up situation, but it feels like there is no way out" yes there is! Channel Oprah - "no is a complete sentence"

She's YOUR child NOT theirs, you don't owe them anything.

I'd risk a rift over my child's happiness and emotional security let alone potential protection from abuse (which includes emotional yes, but also physical) any day!

Does your dh have sisters? Does your fil have nieces? How do they get along with him? Do they?

In all honesty at this point in your shoes I'd be checking up on fil via Sarah's law. Not even kidding!

I too would be reinforcing with the school that ONLY you or dh can get her.

I also recommend you read

www.stopitnow.org/ohc-content/behaviors-to-watch-out-for-when-adults-are-with-children

Also I'm really sorry but the visits over Christmas, there were clearly times he was able to talk to her ALONE without you or dh present. That means there was opportunity for other things to have happened. You'd be shocked how little time it takes for an abuser to act inappropriately. It's even possible in a room full of people.

You could call nspcc for advice?

"In contrast she begs for sleepovers at my parents." Not just clinginess to you/home then either. Trusts your parents.

Controlling how exactly?

"Absolutely 0% chance of him having abused her. She has never been left alone with pils." As I & others have said it doesn't always happen when nobody else is about, it takes seconds! Plus things could still be at grooming stage, if they're heading that way.

"He hasn't given you any indication so far that he is" I MASSIVELY beg to differ! He's at the very least emotionally abusive that's already known!

There also seems to be a weird perception on this thread that abuse only happens at night! I can assure you it happens at all times of day, with and without privacy.

"Do you really still think his behaviour comes from a good place, where has that mindset of yours come from?. That is really your own naiveaty talking. Your DHs father is not a safe person to be at all around." I generally love your advice Attila you're usually spot on but in this case I don't think it's naïveté but conditioning - don't rock the boat, think we'll of others right up until it's bloody obvious they're awful...

"She has never been left alone with them because of the issue with fil not understanding dds cues." Which was ABSOLUTELY the right decision. Don't back down because he's throwing a tantrum!

"From the second she was born he has been so over excited around her" that's exactly how my dad (my abuser) was. Even as a newborn he didn't like other men holding me.

To be perfectly honest the normal reaction to being told to respect a child's boundaries is to perhaps feel hurt at the thought you meant ANY harm BUT to pull back! It is NOT to get angry and push harder against those boundaries AND start trying to erode others.

"Cuppy I'm starting to think you might be right." I agree. Often the anticipatory fear of a thing happening is worse than the event itself!

How do you handle the tickling/physical boundary crossing? I have to be honest if that were my dd I'd be physically removing her from him

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME!

"It sounds difficult because he just wants to spend time with his dgc, you have asked dd a couple of times now and she is happy to be collected from school by him so why don’t you allow him to collect her and then he has to bring her to your house where he can stay for an hour or so with her. Get him to help her with her homework" I wouldn't advise it but I can't help but wonder if making such a suggestion would lead to a revelation? If he was ok with this or something similar that's a (very minor) positive. If he kicks off because he's STILL not getting her completely to himself that would be a pretty good indication that whatever his intentions (and it may "just" be to brainwash her into making him her "favourite" but even that's bad enough) they aren't entirely honourable.

"Being a bad parent does not automatically make you a bad grandparent" no but it's a pretty good indicator they could be. I mistakenly thought my mum might be a better gran than mum, when dd was younger it wasn't too bad but as the grandchildren have become older the scapegoating crap has definitely been visited on the next generation. My sis is gc and her kids are worshipped, my brothers are all but invisible, and dd is sg.

"And (sorry to appear so judgy, sexist and ageist) how many men of this age actively seek out childcare when their wives are not there to do the grunt work? Not any, IME." Totally agree.

"You only have to read on this forum to find people who have suffered both SA & EA who will say that actually long term it is the EA which forms the deepest scars. Please please protect her." Again totally agree - that's the part that victims never really recover from ime.

"He asked to be involved and you and dh repeatedly ignored his request of when to come school run. That is rude" is it fuck! Saying a polite no to anything is NEVER rude!

"and I know she is safe." That's the BIG difference for your family.

Op your dd comes first. It is really not worth the risk of possibly putting her in harms way, from "only" bullying, controlling behaviour to possibly something much worse, once that damage has been done it CANNOT be undone.

A very firm no & tell the school too.

LL83 did you miss the parts where the OP's DH has had extensive experience of his Dad's controlling behaviour? Where even after having been told not to ignore her DD's requests to stop tickling and rough play, he still does it and OP and her DH still have to step in and tell him no?

I am all for loving grandparents enriching a child's life, but perhaps it's worth remembering that not everyone is as fortunate as you are to have grandparents with whom you feel comfortable leaving your child.

^ well said

@LL83
This is insane!!!!

All I see from this thread is a grandparent who is trying to interact with granddaughter and not got the balance right yet. Tickling and saying no is hardly controlling.

Then perhaps you need to brush up your comprehension skills?

Read all the OP's posts again.

I can only assume when you say he's not an abuser you mean sexual abuse. I couldn't comment either way on that point.

However, to say he's not abusive when you describe and acknowledge his controlling behaviour is inaccurate. Control is abuse. It just manifests in different ways. Not every abuser engages in every type and tactic of abuse - so to identify someone as abusive does not mean you are saying they are capable of sexual abuse.

Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour because it is rooted in power and control. Abuse is not solely physical in nature.

I think you need to correctly label his controlling behaviour as abusive if you are ever to deal with this situation appropriately.

Acknowledging that he has a history and present of abusive behaviour is not calling him a sex offender, it's just accurately labelling his abusive behaviour for what it is. Once you do that, you can deal with it.

Mil is passive. She doesn't try to stop his behaviour, but she herself behaves perfectly normally around dd.

When he is not respecting dds boundaries we will say "she wants to stop now" or "she has had enough of that" and make him stop. Another part of that previous thread was him forcing her to kiss him. We say "it's ok, you don't have to give kisses, let's wave bye to grandad" if he even looks like he is thinking about making a fuss over it. That was a big part of the autonomy talk. Before he would throw a strop over her not wanting to kiss him and once even grabbed her face to force her.

Dh has a brother. He has an equally difficult relationship with them. He still lives with them due to financial reasons, and he hates it.

I think tonight we will be putting together a message to say we won't be doing the pick ups as dd is unsettled with so much change going on already. The whole thing is stressing me out so much I just need to get it over with.

Absolutely not!

You need to prepare for his reaction once you tell him no. Because he will go nuts. Perhaps a warning that you will block him on all social media if (when) he becomes abusive to you in response to your decision.

GPs do not have a right to a relationship. If he is making things worse for you instead of better then cut him off.

@graphista

Amazing post. It should be saved somewhere on here. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

The last Oprah link was amazing, those last words.

Forgot them and think... Why is this person trying to change my mind and control me. Spot on and it's that simple isn't it.

I'd love to be Able to post that sometimes when usually (not on this thread) the same posters come on berating anyone for even the merest suggestion that a family members intentions may not be honourable.

I had never heard about that stranger danger campaign being seen as damaging but I can see why it could be.

Most children are abused by people they know. Very very sobering.

Whoa. He forces dd to kiss him.

You have to have a united front with your dh. There are SO many issues here it’s overwhelming.

Graphista has posted an incredible post. Reread that. ( graphista)

Crafty Yankee

The massive problem is we are told actually if gp can prove past relations they can be granted time with their grandchildren.

It always makes me wonder how anyone would take what ops saying to court and stop access.